Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Serving said:

Not so .. Christ first enters our atmosphere before gathering His saints :

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet sounds as He descends, likely a long sounding peal like as at Mt Sinai, the dead are resurrected first THEN those remaining are transformed into spirit THEN both TOGETHER are taken up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.   

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again, notice He comes into the clouds first (our atmosphere) and THEN He gathers His saints .. therefore "we" can not be in heaven when "we" are gathered, instead, we are still on the earth as it clearly shows above.
 

You are speaking of the Rapture, not the Second Coming....from my perspective. I think what you described as Jesus calling up the Saints, have nothing to do with the Second Coming. Hence we are gathered in Matthew 24:31 from one end of heaven to the other. Because after the rapture, we marry the Lamb in Heaven (Rev. 19).

 

I think the Trumpet is Jesus' call to us to come up to him. In Revelation, John kept saying Jesus' voice sounded like a Trump. Revelation 1: ¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

Immediately after the tribulation, we Saints who married the Lamb in Heaven (Rev. 19) wll come back to earth with him on white horses.

[Serving]

On 10/06/2016 at 11:00 PM, Revelation Man said:

You are speaking of the Rapture, not the Second Coming....from my perspective. I think what you described as Jesus calling up the Saints, have nothing to do with the Second Coming. Hence we are gathered in Matthew 24:31 from one end of heaven to the other. Because after the rapture, we marry the Lamb in Heaven (Rev. 19).

 

I think the Trumpet is Jesus' call to us to come up to him. In Revelation, John kept saying Jesus' voice sounded like a Trump. Revelation 1: ¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

Immediately after the tribulation, we Saints who married the Lamb in Heaven (Rev. 19) wll come back to earth with him on white horses.

No, it's definitely 2nd coming scriptures i posted .. and they both agree with all other examples which all speak of the same coming .. the 2nd coming itself :

(PS .. I added verse 15 in 1 Thessalonians below of which I left out last time, which, by the way, brings the message into irrefutable perspective) 

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Beyond doubt, that speaks of the 2nd coming .. which harmonises perfectly with Matthew below :

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

See how they complement each other?

Now in case we lose sight of Matthew 24's overall theme, it is always prudent to re-confirm the context of which the narrative within the chapter itself is actually based around :  

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

That was the actual context of Matthew's chapter 24 .. to do with the events leading up to and concerning His 2nd coming .. and Christ only speaks of ONE coming in that WHOLE chapter .. the only "rapture" He mentions, His coming.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

That coming.

Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

Even the evil servant knows what the term "His coming" is speaking about.

Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Because every man is given his reward on that same Day since His reward is with Him .. which reward is "paid" on the very same Day of His coming and not before .. and that reward is eternal life for the children of the resurrection.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

And His coming is in the clouds to where His saints will be gathered unto Him before entering into Israel to establish the restored kingdom of Israel of which our Lord and His saints will rule over .. ruling over revived human Israelite's from all generations who never knew Him so as to learn of their Messiah during the millennium.  

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

At the 2nd coming.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Coming FROM the CLOUDS whence He gathered them at His coming, and THEN from those same clouds will He come down for to establish the restored Kingdom of Israel.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The 2nd coming.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The coming whereby He gathers His saints, the 2nd coming.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The same day whereby the resurrection of the saints occurs at His coming. 

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Which coming consistently speaks of only ONE set aside DAY

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Of which the world will remain ignorant of even right up to that very day itself.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

That coming where He appears with His reward .. the 2nd coming itself .. the day of resurrection, the ONLY DAY set aside for the saints to be "raptured" as it were .. scripture speaks of no other day whereby the Lord gathers His saints ("church") .. only men do.

[Diaste]

On 6/6/2016 at 9:33 AM, Rick_Parker said:

"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:18,19 (NIV)

No idea what point you're trying to make.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Diaste

[Guest]

That those who leave the Church and deny Christ were most probably not believers to begin with. The Bible states that a true Christian cannot loose their salvation, even when they put Christ "on the shelf" for a while. It also says that Christ will bring those who wander back, just as a shepherd goes after a lost sheep. The parable of the Prodigal Son is a perfect example. Even though the one son took his inheritance and squandered it, he never lost his position as a son of the father when he returned. 

[missmuffet]

I think that the threads regarding "Why the pretribulation doctrine is false" or "Why the post tribulation is false" is really negative. It is something that only brings on anger and division. Why can't everyone except each others view and leave it at that?

[ZacharyB]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 2:48 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

The pre-trib rapture, is never, ever, ever stated in scriptrue anywhere

why can't people deal with that?

Because the pre-trib rapture doctrine tickles their ears!

Just like the OSAS doctrine tickles their ears!

But, some have just been deceived with false doctrine

in the churches, books, videos, etc.!

Edited August 12, 2016 by ZacharyB

[PatrolMan]

No one knows the date or time of the rapture. how ever. God says that as a Christian I am not appointed to wrath. Now after the Pre-Tribulation  rapture there will be some saved and join His church. If I have to go through what non Christians have to go through I might as well do as I darn please because there doesn't seem to be much of an advantage for going to church because my Father is going to torture me anyway.

[Diaste]

On 6/12/2016 at 0:39 PM, missmuffet said:

I think that the threads regarding "Why the pretribulation doctrine is false" or "Why the post tribulation is false" is really negative. It is something that only brings on anger and division. Why can't everyone except each others view and leave it at that?

Really? So any view of the prophecies of scripture should just be accepted? You realize that either all the views would then be wrong or only one would be correct, don't you? Is that how we should approach prophecy, "As long as I believe it, it's true."? I'm sure that idea is Holy Spirit inspired and approved by God.

[Diaste]

29 minutes ago, PatrolMan said:

No one knows the date or time of the rapture. how ever. God says that as a Christian I am not appointed to wrath. Now after the Pre-Tribulation  rapture there will be some saved and join His church. If I have to go through what non Christians have to go through I might as well do as I darn please because there doesn't seem to be much of an advantage for going to church because my Father is going to torture me anyway.

The problem here is the mistake Pretrib makes concerning 'tribulation' and 'wrath'. These two ideas are completely different. Neither are they equivalent. While God sends both tribulation and administers wrath, God's wrath is poured out upon the unregenerate, the rebels, the followers of Satan. This has nothing to do with the sons of the Most High. They will never see the wrath of God. But tribulation is a condition that will exist to inspire believers and unbelievers to seek God in a more powerful and sincere manner.

Tribulation, meaning 'distress' is very different and has a distinct purpose. Where wrath is used to destroy God's enemies, distress is meant to drive people toward God. Absolute opposites. So there is no problem with believers 'being in tribulation' as tribulation is inspiration, not destruction. Jesus comes at the moment tribulation ends, gathers the believers, and begins the actions of God's wrath destroying God's enemies.

Think about what you are believing. Pretrib equates the 70th week with the wrath of God. Pretrib says christians are taken at a pretrib rapture before the tribulation begins. Pretrib, and you, say some are saved and join the church, during the tribulation, which Pretrib says is the wrath of God. Pretrib, and you, are saying there will be believers on earth during the wrath of God. That cannot be if believers are not appointed to wrath.  So either Pretrib is wrong, or no one is saved during the trib/wrath, or tribulation is not the same as wrath.

[Diaste]

On 6/12/2016 at 0:33 PM, Rick_Parker said:

That those who leave the Church and deny Christ were most probably not believers to begin with. The Bible states that a true Christian cannot loose their salvation, even when they put Christ "on the shelf" for a while. It also says that Christ will bring those who wander back, just as a shepherd goes after a lost sheep. The parable of the Prodigal Son is a perfect example. Even though the one son took his inheritance and squandered it, he never lost his position as a son of the father when he returned. 

Yeah, the bible says no such thing. Your cited 'perfect example' tells us a person can indeed lose it all. The son had all his father owned and gave it up for earthly pleasures. The father of the prodigal son considered his son dead. That means no place in his father's house, so the son lost it all. Of course the son repented and was joyously accepted back in the fold.

You ignore the fact the son did lose everything, after he had everything, and would have stayed dead to his father's house, unless he returned with repentance.

I would ask that you post the most convincing scripture you can find supporting OSAS to back up this claim.