Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2016 at 1:37 PM, MorningGlory said:

The Rapture has nothing to do with the Second Coming.  Two separate events.

Prove it instead of just throwing out unsupported statements. Post the scripture that shows the events are not linked. 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, RobertS said:

I'm going to go point by point. My responses will appear in this color.

"It's just not possible" is a cop-out and a dodge designed to avoid answering the question and you know it. So, let's address some of your claims:

It's not a cop out but I appreciate the visceral retort. I answered all three questions,   "what if you don't see it? What if these things do not happen before the end of your life, or worse? What if they do not happen before the Rapture?"  by stating,  "If indeed I die before I see any of this I will be resurrected at the Day of the Lord so I'm not concerned about that. But even if I do not see any of the things I know are coming, they are still coming. Can't be prevented, subverted or halted. As to your question, "What if they do not happen before the Rapture?" I would say it's just not possible for that to be the case. The Gospels, Epistles, and Rev are clear on the order of the three most important events: The Day of the Lord, the gathering of the elect and the rise of the beast. The clear order from all the relevant scripture is the beast rises first then sometime after the gathering occurs just before the Day of the Lord."

I don't know how it's a cop out when I answered, "My salvation is secure if I live or die before these things happen, that these things will occur whether I live or die, and that it's impossible for these things to happen before the gathering based on Matt 24.

First off: Revelation says that the entire Trib is God's wrath, in Rev 6. How can the Seal judgments be called the "wrath of the lamb", but the rest until the Bowl Judgments not be? If that is the case, and scripture tells us that "we are not appointed to wrath". Kind of hard to explain with the remaining scenarios.

Since you are not posting any scripture to support this false premise I can only assume there isn't any. Did you think I was going to take you at your word? Post the scripture that proves tribulation equates to wrath. Post the scripture that proves the seals are the wrath of the Lamb. As scripture says, the wrath of the Lamb begins at the sixth seal;

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also, if the Rapture comes mid or post-trib, then all you're going to get is people who have wasted their whole lives "deciding" to repent at the last seconds before the Rapture. Not to mention a post-trib rapture is senseless, as Jesus is already on his way down.

What? Is this an actual argument? Are you saying that people have to repent when and how you think they should? So if a person repents in the moments before their death then the repentance doesn't count? According to you they should have repented long ago and since they waited their salvation is invalid. The second sentence of the above paragraph is just made for TV drama. Scripture says that when Jesus appears every eye will see Him. Paul links the day of the Lord and the gathering as occurring at the same moment.

2 Thess 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The above passage says the day of Christ and the gathering cannot occur until the beast sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be god.

 

Additionally, Scripture makes it perfectly clear that no one knows the time the Rapture will come, which presents a problem for pre-wrath, mid-trib and post-trib scenarios.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, NASB, emphasis mine)

If we knew the timing of the Rapture, it would not be a "mystery".

 A mistake in comprehension. The mystery here is revealed. The 'mystery' is the resurrection at the Day of the Lord. In fact we are told the exact time the resurrection will occur, at the last Trump. So your secret gathering and unknown timing arguments fall flat. The rapture occurs at the last trump as stated in the above scripture. Pretrib always does this. They post scripture to prove some irrational point about timing and then fail to read all the words. I Cor 15:51-52 states the timing of the rapture as occurring at the last trump. So during the trib we can just count trumps and when we get to six, we know the Day of the Lord can finally occur at any moment. Lots of repentance going on after the sixth trump I would imagine.

As for your claim of " These are now believers, in the wrath of God, something pretrib says cannot happen.", this is the return of the dispensation of Law, not grace. These are not the church, but Tribulation Believers. They learn a new song no one else can learn, so they cannot be of the Bride of Christ, and the promises made to the Church do not apply here, just as the promises made to Israel cannot be transferred to the Church.

You are skirting the issue. They are still believers. Believers are not appointed to wrath. Why does pretrib condemn believers to the wrath of God when pretrib bases their fallacy on the biblical fact that NO believers endure the wrath of God? You must be referencing Rev 14:3. The new song learned here is by the 144k that were redeemed from the earth. This is the group of Jewish male virgins and are not the same as believers. Again a mistake in comprehension.

Yet another point: "For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:8-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

e.Here you make the mistake all pretrib hangs on; equating tribulation with wrath. This is another false premise, to wit: 

Tribulation:

Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis)
Short Definition: persecution, affliction, distress
Definition: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

Wrath

Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Short Definition: anger, wrath, passion
Definition: anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.

Wrath and tribulation are two very different things. 

Not "through", not "during", but "from the wrath to come.

Wrath is not tribulation so you are correct here. We go through tribulation but not wrath.

There is also the issue of the Restrainer: It has to be the Holy Spirit, as it takes a person of superior power to restrain an individual such as Satan. Even Michael the Archangel would not argue with Satan when contending with the body of Moses, but said "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 1:9 to be exact). And scripture is clear that A) He would never leave us nor forsake us, and B) the restrainer would be removed.

Agreed.

Finally, Daniel 9 makes clear that Israel still has duties to perform before the Lord, to finish what they were originally charged with:

" “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. " (Daniel 9:24, NASB)

It is clear here that the Lord once again deals with Israel as a distinct calling and purpose. Were the Church present, there could be no distinction between them, nor could Israel finish the divine duties given to her. Keep in mind the 144,000 are Jews sealed and chosen by God; how could they be Jews, yet be sealed if the Church were still here?

This make no sense. The church is present now and there is a clear distinction between Jews and christians. You're argument is weak and assumes God cannot keep nor distinguish between Jews, the 144k, christians, and unbelievers. 

 

So, I'm sorry; but what you're trying to sell here isn't working.  While I have no issue with folks believing in pre-wrath, mid-trib or post-trib raptures, I do have a problem when someone claims that pre-trib is a "false teaching". Omegaman and I disagree for example on this and several issues, but I have never once called him a "false teacher" or "heretic" (others have, much to their shame). And yes, you can come up with every single hypothetical scenario of "this could cause a person to not believe"; well, that's like saying "hypochondriacs visit my doctor so I'm not going". It's a lame excuse, and it doesn't work.

It's good you have a problem.  It matters not to me whether you like of dislike me calling pretrib a false doctrine. Pretrib is contradicted by scripture and relies on false premises and personal assumptions. As you have tried to shame me it's proof that the doctrine has little support. I would rather be pleasing to God and have every man as my enemy if that's the way it has to be.

 

And with that, my work is done here.  Reply if you feel you should, but I've made my points clear.

You have made your points clear but with little scripture to back it up. Let me say I appreciate the dismissive and mocking tone. It just proves the weakness of the doctrine and the merit of the biblical arguments for prewrath gathering.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, RobertS said:

First off: Revelation says that the entire Trib is God's wrath, in Rev 6.

Who is it that declares God's Wrath is coming?

Are they indeed correct, seeing as they don't know God, as to exactly what is going to happen next on the Day of the Lord?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, RobertS said:

First off: Revelation says that the entire Trib is God's wrath, in Rev 6.

And what of Revelation chapter 13?

For the 42 months the anti-Christ is allowed to oppress the Saints right up to the installation of the talking image abomination(s) of himself - where is God's Wrath?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, RobertS said:

First off: Revelation says that the entire Trib is God's wrath, in Rev 6.

Last set of questions on this important declaration on your part:

Where is one 'seven' defined?  (Daniel 9:27)
Where is the Great Tribulation defined?  (The Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:15-31)

Are they not separate periods of time?  (Yes.)
How is it that you equate the two as being one and the same?

[TheMatrixHasU71]

4 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Who is it that declares God's Wrath is coming?

Are they indeed correct, seeing as they don't know God, as to exactly what is going to happen next on the Day of the Lord?

 

Revelation 6:16   And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 6:17   For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:18   And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:19   And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:1   And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:7   And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:1   And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth

[Marcus O'Reillius]

32 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

 

Revelation 6:16   And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 6:17   For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:18   And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:19   And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:1   And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:7   And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:1   And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth

You didn't answer the question.

The pertinent verses are Revelation 6:16 & 17.  Those are the only two which apply to the question being asked AT the opening of the sixth Seal.

• Rev 11:18 - After the seventh Trumpet.
• Rev 14:8 & 10 - Announcement of one of three Angels - which by the way is the motivation for the people who say God's Wrath is coming NEXT at the sixth Seal.
  • As to the first portion - verse 8 does NOT describe God's Wrath.
  • As to the second portion - they SHALL drink - future... not at that moment; not what is going to happen NEXT.
• Rev 14:19 - Comes AFTER the Harvest of Revelation 14:14-16.  It also comes after the midpoint Abomination of Rev 13:14-15.
• Rev 15:1-16:1 - Come with the Bowls, which are LAST, and I think correspond to the seventh Trumpet's announcement we never hear.

WHO is it that says God's Wrath is coming at the opening of the sixth Seal?

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Last set of questions on this important declaration on your part:

Where is one 'seven' defined?  (Daniel 9:27)
Where is the Great Tribulation defined?  (The Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:15-31)

Are they not separate periods of time?  (Yes.)
How is it that you equate the two as being one and the same?

I don't think you're going to get a response. The challenge is too great.

[Ezra]

13 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

How is it that you equate the two as being one and the same?

Daniel's 70th week is divided into two segments -- the Tribulation (3 1/2 years) and the Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) triggered by the Abomination of Desolation (which also corresponds to the Day of the Lord). The entire period is a period of wrath, in which the first six trumpets of the 7th seal cover the first half, and the seventh trumpet (with 7 vial or bowl judgments covers the last half). 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Daniel's 70th week is divided into two segments -- the Tribulation (3 1/2 years) and the Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) triggered by the Abomination of Desolation (which also corresponds to the Day of the Lord). 

Gabriel declares no such designations as you do.

Dan 9:27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

There is a destruction which will be "poured out" on the desolator - but he makes no announcement of differing tribulations.

Jesus also uses language which designates the Great Tribulation as starting at the midpoint abomination - as you do - howsomevercomma - He also says that is cut short - and the wording He uses is an agricultural term also used for "docking" an animal's tail to but a nub.  Yet you have it running for the full course of the second half of the one 'seven'... interesting to say the least ~ but not at all inline with what the Master says.

Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Using another account of the end-times, Revelation 13:15-16 for why the Great Tribulation is so terrible for the Elect that they wouldn't survive it if it were not cut short - how long can you go without food and electricity and gasoline for your car AND hide while they're tracking you down for the "Daniel" test of worshiping the talking image?

So how is it that you equate the two as you so obviously do?
Is there some Scripture I am unaware of which does?
Or is it a necessity of your eschatology that you "back into" this type of interpretation?