Is there really a rapture?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Great Tribulation is confused as only the seven year period, which it is not, the great tribulation is all of the tests and trials we go through in everyday life, since Jesus died, proof of this is in Matthew 24, if you read it in proper context.

The great tribulation is the trials of this world that all go through, Satan tempts us all and many Saints were killed for Christ Jesus' name. He that endures is speaking of Christians that maintain their walk of faith until death and do not go astray. But the end doesn't come until the Gospel has been preached unto all the world, which Jesus says in Matthew 14, after speaking about the trial and troubles or Tribulation of the Saints and Church for many years before the END CAME. Then comes the end..........

You quote it, but then you bypass what it says.

The Great Tribulation starts with the midpoint abomination.
That is part of the sequence of events Jesus lays out in Mt 24:15-31.

This midpoint abomination refers to Daniel 9:27 and the terrible nature of the abomination(s) is revealed in Rev 13:14-15 as a talking image of the very anti-Christ Daniel wrote so much about.

The Great Tribulation is because of two laws which go into effect with the placement of the talking idol in the Temple which dictate that:
1. Worship or die - and,
2. Take the Mark of the Beast or you can't buy anything (food, water, shelter, utilities) or sell (your labor, paycheck, benefits) anything.

The Elect are told not to follow either law.
Thus, at this time, the Elect are dropping like flies.
This intense time of unjust death penalty and starvation will be abruptly cut short - or else no life (that is applicable! - only the Elect are suffering!) would remain.  SOME of us WILL be alive to see the Lord come.  Most of us won't be that fortunate to never die at all.  But here's the good news: You don't have to make it to the end to make it into Heaven!

The Great Tribulation ends when the sun/moon/star sign for the Day of the Lord begins because at that time - the wicked world is put on notice that God is coming again and they will suffer.  They are so worried about their own skin, which bears the Mark of the Beast, that all effective tribulation ceases.  If any remains - it too will end very soon - that very day.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Elect is Israel and those who chose to become Christians after the Rapture. Are they not elect ? 

There are not two Raptures.

The Elect is synonymous with the Church.

After the Rapture, nearly everyone is wicked, and none believe save the Two Witnesses and any other who must be martyred in order to live eternally.

The only people who have a chance at Heaven, are the Remnant Jews and other survivors who actually make it through the whole of God's Wrath to crawl out on the other end and, now thoroughly humbled, come to believe in the God of Israel.

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Not really, not in my opinion at least.

The book of Revelation is written using parallel accounts.
Within each account there is linear narratives which tell a story in sequence fashion: this happens, then this happens, and so on.

The accounts have overlapping time frames, but they do not all have the same time frame.

So yes, I know about the book of Revelation.

I tend to agree.  I see the seven seals  (and trumpets) as providing an outline sketch and chapters 12 and following as adding "color" to that sketch.

[Retrobyter]

On July 21, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Last Daze said:

As finite beings we are limited in our understanding of the eternal but we have these glimpses to ponder.

Concerning time:

•  But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.  2 Peter 3:8

Concerning time and space:

• So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “ Peace be with you.”   John 20:19
• After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”  John 20:26

It's not unreasonable to think that when we put on eternal immortality (at the resurrection / change / rapture) that we too will be outside the flow of time and not restricted by time to a specific location.  I think the examples of Jesus, in His resurrected body, appearing to the disciples when the doors were shut and locked reflect that.

I'm not going to argue the point but to say that it has NO basis in scripture isn't true.

Shalom, Last Daze.

Have you never considered where this verse in 2 Peter is found? What is its surrounding context? With what other passages of Scripture does it harmonize?

Here's the context:

2 Peter 3:1-13
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which (Greek en hee = in which) the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein (Greek di' heen = through which) the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

One should be made aware that, the day of the Lord (the Christ) already established in verses 8 and 9 to be 1000 years long for His mercy's sake, that the "heavens shall pass away (rush away/by) etc." will just be sometime IN this 1000-year period. However, the "heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, etc." will occur THROUGH the new Day of God (the Father). 

This passage harmonizes with Revelation 20:1-21:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

Revelation 20:1-21:4
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This (vs. 4) is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

All three passages have the following in common: Ungodliness, Judgment, and then God in control. Revelation and 2 Peter also have the Fire thrown in between the Ungodliness and the Judgment. The "Day of the Lord" begins with the Lord Yeshua` coming back to begin His reign. It ends with "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men," namely the "Great White Throne Judgment," in which the ungodly are judged. This is NOT just some arbitrary "1000 years" in 2 Peter 3:8! It's the SAME "1000 years" as in Revelation 20:2-7, the Millennium (Greek: chilia etee = "a thousand years"). Immediately after this, will be the "Day of God."

Regarding "...we too will be outside the flow of time and not restricted by time to a specific location," I'm glad you're not going to argue the point because it really DOESN'T have support from the Scriptures! That's all conjecture based on the imagination of human beings living in our days of modern science.

The very first thing that you must understand is that we don't HAVE bodies; we ARE bodies! Again, I must take you back to Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

See, we don't have to ask the question they did in Medieval times, "From whence did Adam's soul come?" "Where did Adam's soul come from?" The answer is clear from this verse: First, God formed the man (the body) "from the dust of the ground!" Then, the Man (the body) BECAME a living "soul," a living "nefesh," a living "air-breather," when God "puffed into his nostrils a puff of life" (Hebrew: vayipach b-apaayow nishmat chayiym = "and-he-puffed in-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-things")! The word translated "soul," the Hebrew word "nefesh," comes from the root Hebrew word "naafash" meaning "to breathe." Adam needed a "kick-start." We've learned to do the same thing in CPR techniques.

Once you recognize the importance of having BEING a body, then you are ready for the next step: Those Scriptures that talk about the "soul" are places where the body is "breathing!" To see this in the verses that are quoted can answer a lot of questions, like does an animal have a "soul?" The answer is "OF COURSE an animal has an 'air-breathing body!'" Do fish have "souls?" NO! They are not "air-breathers!" And, so on.

The Scriptures are also quite clear on the ABSOLUTE NEED we have for a resurrection! A "spirit" (Hebrew: ruwach; Greek: pneuma) is the "BREATH" of a person or animal that breathes. Thus, a "soul" (an "air-breather") is the combination of the body and the "spirit" (the "breath" of that created being). So, for a human being to be a "soul" once again, he or she MUST become an "air-breather" again! We human beings were created for this space-mass-time continuum which God has also created. We were created for the earth, and the earth was created for us. That's why a perfect God could say at the end of the Creation Week,

Genesis 1:31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
KJV

When a perfectly efficient God could look at His creation and call it "very good," you KNOW it was originally as perfect as He is! That's how it was to be; and that is how it will be again! I have a preacher friend who used to say that the Bible was outlined this way:

I. Genesis 1-2 - How things ought to be
II. Genesis 3 - How things are
III. Genesis 4-Revelation 21 - How to get from how things are to how things ought to be

Many preachers in the past have noted the similarities between the Genesis account of Creation and the final two chapters of Revelation.

Unless we are recipients of the Resurrection, we have no place in the Messiah's Kingdom or in the New Earth with its New Skies in the Father's Kingdom.

[Retrobyter]

On July 21, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Montana Marv said:

Roy

This would depend on how far the reach of Satan has extended.  Everything he has touched or influenced will be purged by fire.  2 Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.  The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

So Scripture says there is a change that will be taking place.  The heavens and earth will be both affected.  To what full extent, we do not know.  But all traces of Satan and his influence will be wiped away.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shalom, Montana Marv.

How do the "heavens disappear with a roar" if that verse is not talking about the ATMOSPHERE?! That word "heavens," coming from the word "ouranoi" in Greek, is talking about our earth's ATMOSPHERE! the SKY!

A few years ago (1979), there was a movie called "Alien." Remember it? Remember the catch-phrase on the posters and in the movie trailers? "In space, no one can hear you scream." It's true! In a vacuum, sound cannot propagate! Sound requires air molecules to transfer the sound-wave energy to a listener's ears! We get too used to the special effects of Star Wars and Star Trek and movies and shows like these two franchises to really question the validity, the veracity, and the continuity of these shows. We're so used to the "WHOOSH" of the disappearing Enterprise, for instance, to question whether such a departure would produce any sound at all!

However, in the 2 Peter 3 account and in the Revelation 20 account of the destruction of earth's atmosphere, there is indeed a RUSHING of wind! That's kind of hard to have without WIND! And, the wind is a movement of the air molecules as they rush from an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure.

"HaSatan" is Hebrew for "The Enemy." That may refer to a single individual or an army of individuals, all of whom collectively are called "the Enemy." We do recognize that Yochanan (John) in the book of Revelation calls that old Dragon - the Original Snake - both "Satan," the "Enemy," and the "diabolos," the "slanderer"; however, there are SERIOUS steps we need to take to re-evaluate the concept of a "spirit dimension." For instance, neither Isaiah 14 nor Ezekiel 28 are chapters referring to "haSatan." One refers to Nabonidus, king of Babylon (Isa. 14:4), and the other refers to the king of Tyre (Ezek. 28:2).

As the "original snake," and a "dragon" (a large, monstrous reptile similar to what we now refer to as "dinosaurs"), he would be restricted to the earth the same as all other animals and human beings are today! Only the SURFACE of the earth needs to be purged of the HUMAN debaucheries and "creations" (monstrosities) that human beings produce and call "art" and "progress." Even the core of our planet need not be purged, because that is NOT where "hell" is.

We need to be EXTREMELY CAREFUL of "spinning" universalisms out of local and particular information within the Bible. It's just too easy for us as imaginative people to blow things out of proportion and produce dichotomies - "all or nothing" scenarios - in our quest for biblical truth.

 

[PatrolMan]

Yes, Christians will be caught up to heaven.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, PatrolMan said:

Yes, Christians will be caught up to heaven.

Have I encountered another pretrib believer?

[enoob57]

John 14:3

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV
 

[precepts]

On 6/22/2016 at 9:20 AM, Out of the Shadows said:

Or is it the product of American Christianity? 

We are told that some would be left behind, and that it would be like in the days of Noah and the days of Lot.  In both the days of Noah and the days of Lot, the people left behind were the good people, not the evil doers.  So, if the meeting in the sky with Jesus is the same as the days of Noah and Lot, you want to be one of those left behind. 

The only rapture of this earth is the wheat and tares rapture/harvest at the end of the world, the 3rd resurrection at the 7th trump. The first 2 resurrections happened in heaven: the resurrection of the just (Rev 6:9-11 & 7:9), and the "Great White Throne" judgement/resurrection/harvest after the 1,000 yrs heavenly reign (Rev 20:4-6). There is no "throne" judgement in the 3rd resurrection/harvest of this earth. We are either carried thru the gates into the new Shalem or carried to the lake of fire.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

++++++++++++++

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

Again, there is no throne judgement at the 3rd resurrection/harvest of this physical world.

[PatrolMan]

11 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Have I encountered another pretrib believer?

Yes you have, this is the only sound doctrine that the bible teaches at least in my opinion.