Is there really a rapture?

[missmuffet]

27 minutes ago, blessed457 said:

Here is all I need to know about the catching away-Rapture of the Church-body of Christ, I'M GOING!

So am I

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, missmuffet said:

So am I

Shalom, missmuffet and blessed457.

Yes, we all are! But, ... going WHERE?! Won't it be interesting when we get up to the clouds and ... "RIGHT TURN, CLYDE!" And, we head off for ISRAEL?! Don't be too surprised when it happens!

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, missmuffet and blessed457.

Yes, we all are! But, ... going WHERE?! Won't it be interesting when we get up to the clouds and ... "RIGHT TURN, CLYDE!" And, we head off for ISRAEL?! Don't be too surprised when it happens!

Once we're with Him in the clouds, we will be immortal.  Time and space will be of no consequence.  We can have a wedding feast and carry on for the longest "time" and those on earth will be oblivious to that.  It would appear to them as the Lord's return happened as quickly as His ascension.

• "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:11b

[Guest]

Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!
Mark 13:35-37

[Retrobyter]

On July 19, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Last Daze said:

Once we're with Him in the clouds, we will be immortal.  Time and space will be of no consequence.  We can have a wedding feast and carry on for the longest "time" and those on earth will be oblivious to that.  It would appear to them as the Lord's return happened as quickly as His ascension.

• "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:11b

Shalom, Last Daze.

Really? Where does it say THAT in Scripture? That may be one of those "warm and fuzzy" sentiments, but it has NO basis in Scripture! In quoting Scripture, be sure that you're properly quoting it WITHIN ITS CONTEXT! Look at the rest of the verse and those surrounding it to see the gist of what is being said:

Acts 1:1-12
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem (the city of the King), and in all Judaea (the Tribe of the King), and in Samaria (the rest of Israel), and unto the uttermost part of the earth (wherever the children of Israel were sent in the diaspora).
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky).
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

A literal cloud blocked their view of His ascension, and they kept looking for any sign of Him, much as we watch a rocket's liftoff. The MANNER (WAY) in which He left them is NOT addressing the STATE of His body! It's the rising into the sky until they could no longer see Him beyond the cloud!

Don't be so foolish as to think that "time and space" have no more affect! It took TIME for Him to rise into the sky! He still consists of "flesh and bones!" (Luke 24:36-43.) Therefore, He is subject to three-dimensional SPACE!

While we shall be "immortal," that just means that we will no longer be able to die! "Incorruptible" means that we will no longer be able to decay!

Consider GOD'S words in Genesis 8:

Genesis 8:21-22
21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
KJV

And, take into consideration God's words through Ethan speaking under inspiration:

Psalm 89:20-37
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven (the skies). Selah.
KJV

And, consider what Shlomoh (Solomon) said, also under God's inspiration:

Ecclesiastes 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

And, if that's not enough, consider GOD'S words in the Torah:

Exodus 31:13-17
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
KJV

Some people seem to think that the earth is going to be totally destroyed. Some even extend this to the ENTIRE UNIVERSE! Ridiculous! Nothing even remotely like that is said in the Scriptures! 

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Last Daze.

Really? Where does it say THAT in Scripture? That may be one of those "warm and fuzzy" sentiments, but it has NO basis in Scripture!

As finite beings we are limited in our understanding of the eternal but we have these glimpses to ponder.

Concerning time:

•  But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.  2 Peter 3:8

Concerning time and space:

• So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “ Peace be with you.”   John 20:19
• After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”  John 20:26

It's not unreasonable to think that when we put on eternal immortality (at the resurrection / change / rapture) that we too will be outside the flow of time and not restricted by time to a specific location.  I think the examples of Jesus, in His resurrected body, appearing to the disciples when the doors were shut and locked reflect that.

I'm not going to argue the point but to say that it has NO basis in scripture isn't true.

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Don't be so foolish as to think that "time and space" have no more affect! It took TIME for Him to rise into the sky! He still consists of "flesh and bones!" (Luke 24:36-43.) Therefore, He is subject to three-dimensional SPACE!

The point I was trying to make is that we won't be constrained by time and space as we are now, not that we couldn't interact with it.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 7/17/2016 at 11:06 PM, Revelation Man said:

Ever wonder about the Wheat and Tares parable ? The tares are supposed to be bound first, then the Wheat is gathered to the Fathers Barn. But either version of the Rapture, be it Pre-Mid or Post, the Church is taken to Heaven first, for 7 years, 3 1/2 years, or to meet Jesus in the air and come back with him like Rev. 19 says, (I know its pre, but just for arguments sake....) So, how can the Tares be gathered and bound before the Wheat ? There is only one way. Jesus came to die for all man kind, of course, but his ministry was unto Israel only (for I have come unto the lost sheep of Israel only) The Church has nothing to do with Jesus' parable, the Wheat is Israel, and the tares are those destroyed when we, the Church, come back with Jesus to destroy the Tares, thus binding them in the Grave for their eventual judgment in 1000 years. Thus they are bound, and Jesus welcomes Israel (Wheat) into his Fathers barn, they are graphed back into the tree so to speak.

Mt 10:18 - and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 

There is a sense that while Jesus was only sent to the sheep among the house of Israel in the verse you cite, we also have to examine the author, Matthew, and the message he is directing to his audience, the Hebrews, because Matthew is written to the Jews.  A fact we know is that the Gospel message was never limited to the Jews.  The fact you quote, Mt 15:24, is not included in Mark, written to the Romans, or Luke, written to the Greeks, or John, written to the world - Matthew included it for his audience so they would understand that Jesus was specifically sent to them first and foremost.  The author is tailoring his message to his intended audience.  It does not violate the truth of Jesus' statement; we have no testimony which puts Jesus outside the borders of Israel.

The verse you cite is in the context of Jesus' travels to the reaches of Israel.  Mt 15:21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.  - which is at the extreme north of Israel near what was the province of Syria, or to place it in the modern day - in the middle of southern Lebanon - quite outside the modern borders of Israel.  And when we examine Mt 15, Jesus says this to a Canaanite woman, who is not of the Jews, and even here, He rewards her faith with the miraculous - just as He did for the sheep of Israel.  So is Jesus' Message only for the Jews?  I don't think so.

Mt 15:29 Departing from there, Jesus went along by the Sea of Galilee, and having gone up on the mountain,

Furthermore, right next in the Gospel message of Matthew, we have another example of Jesus' Ministry to those who come to Him - even though He was only sent to gather the sheep among the House of Israel.  Is there prophetic evidence for this?  Yes.

Isa 49:6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

What Jesus says in Mt 15:24 is in perfect harmony to Isaiah 49:6a.
What Jesus does next with the feeding of the 4000 is in perfect harmony with Isaiah 49:6b.

So - while He was sent only to the sheep among the house of Israel, what Jesus does next chronologically after your reference which has you limit the wheat to Israel - means His outreach does not preclude a wider application.   The feeding of the 4000 is being symbolically for the Gentiles.   While He may not have strayed from the borders of Israel (reading the text carefully) there is a figurative reference which welds Isaiah 49:6a and 49:6b.  Contrast the feeding of the 4000 to His feeding the 5000 squarely in the land of Israel around the Passover.  With the 5000, they pulled up 12 baskets leftover food symbolizing the 12 Tribes, but with the 4000, seven loaves were broken symbolizing the seven nations displaced by Israel from whom the Hebrews took the promised land.

Even in the text you cite for exclusion of a wider application for the gathering of the wheat - a wider application is expressly written and the message is that while Jesus does not stray from Israel - the Gospel is to all - as John would confirm with his Gospel account.   Again, we have to look at the author and what he is trying to convey to his audience - and knowing Jesus only walked in the Promised Land does not limit His Gospel from the Gentiles.

Therefore, I reject your limitation of the wheat to only the Jews.  
Furthermore, it is the Jews who have to fear what is in store for them on the Day of the Lord.
We, however, look to the Day of the Lord for our gathering up - 2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...

We are the wheat of the Harvest.
We are gathered up.
The tares are collected to be burned.
Two different verbs in the Greek - two different actions - and with two different results.

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Some people seem to think that the earth is going to be totally destroyed. Some even extend this to the ENTIRE UNIVERSE! Ridiculous! Nothing even remotely like that is said in the Scriptures! 

Roy

This would depend on how far the reach of Satan has extended.  Everything he has touched or influenced will be purged by fire.  2 Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.  The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

So Scripture says there is a change that will be taking place.  The heavens and earth will be both affected.  To what full extent, we do not know.  But all traces of Satan and his influence will be wiped away.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Revelation Man]

57 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Mt 10:18 - and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 

There is a sense that while Jesus was only sent to the sheep among the house of Israel in the verse you cite, we also have to examine the author, Matthew, and the message he is directing to his audience, the Hebrews, because Matthew is written to the Jews.  A fact we know is that the Gospel message was never limited to the Jews.  The fact you quote, Mt 15:24, is not included in Mark, written to the Romans, or Luke, written to the Greeks, or John, written to the world - Matthew included it for his audience so they would understand that Jesus was specifically sent to them first and foremost.  The author is tailoring his message to his intended audience.  It does not violate the truth of Jesus' statement; we have no testimony which puts Jesus outside the borders of Israel.

The verse you cite is in the context of Jesus' travels to the reaches of Israel.  Mt 15:21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.  - which is at the extreme north of Israel near what was the province of Syria, or to place it in the modern day - in the middle of southern Lebanon - quite outside the modern borders of Israel.  And when we examine Mt 15, Jesus says this to a Canaanite woman, who is not of the Jews, and even here, He rewards her faith with the miraculous - just as He did for the sheep of Israel.  So is Jesus' Message only for the Jews?  I don't think so.

Mt 15:29 Departing from there, Jesus went along by the Sea of Galilee, and having gone up on the mountain,

Furthermore, right next in the Gospel message of Matthew, we have another example of Jesus' Ministry to those who come to Him - even though He was only sent to gather the sheep among the House of Israel.  Is there prophetic evidence for this?  Yes.

Isa 49:6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

What Jesus says in Mt 15:24 is in perfect harmony to Isaiah 49:6a.
What Jesus does next with the feeding of the 4000 is in perfect harmony with Isaiah 49:6b.

So - while He was sent only to the sheep among the house of Israel, what Jesus does next chronologically after your reference which has you limit the wheat to Israel - means His outreach does not preclude a wider application.   The feeding of the 4000 is being symbolically for the Gentiles.   While He may not have strayed from the borders of Israel (reading the text carefully) there is a figurative reference which welds Isaiah 49:6a and 49:6b.  Contrast the feeding of the 4000 to His feeding the 5000 squarely in the land of Israel around the Passover.  With the 5000, they pulled up 12 baskets leftover food symbolizing the 12 Tribes, but with the 4000, seven loaves were broken symbolizing the seven nations displaced by Israel from whom the Hebrews took the promised land.

Even in the text you cite for exclusion of a wider application for the gathering of the wheat - a wider application is expressly written and the message is that while Jesus does not stray from Israel - the Gospel is to all - as John would confirm with his Gospel account.   Again, we have to look at the author and what he is trying to convey to his audience - and knowing Jesus only walked in the Promised Land does not limit His Gospel from the Gentiles.

Therefore, I reject your limitation of the wheat to only the Jews.  
Furthermore, it is the Jews who have to fear what is in store for them on the Day of the Lord.
We, however, look to the Day of the Lord for our gathering up - 2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...

We are the wheat of the Harvest.
We are gathered up.
The tares are collected to be burned.
Two different verbs in the Greek - two different actions - and with two different results.

The Tares can not be gathered first off, because we go to meet Jesus first. That is just a fact. And just because Jesus prophesied that his disciples would take the Gospel to the Gentiles, which the Old Testament foretold also, doesn't change the fact that none of the prophets nor Jesus came to the Gentiles. They came only unto Israel. Prophesying about the disciples calling AFTER his death has nothing to do with Jesus ministry, he had to be rejected by Israel.  Jesus forbade the disciples and the 70 from going to Gentiles while he was alive.

 Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go onto the road of the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.…

Jesus never went unto a Gentile, the Canaanite woman came to him and he called her a dog, but she said even the dogs get scraps, so he had compassion and healed her daughter. The Centurion, came to Jesus and asked him to heal his servant. The woman at the well came to where Jesus was. No one said the Gospel was not to all, I said Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. The Church and Israel are two separate entities. When the church is Raptured, Israels clock on its 70th week will start. 

The Tares are Israels enemies/Gods enemies. The Wheat is Israel. The Church is in heaven marrying the Lamb. There is no way the Tares can be bound first with either a pre-mid or post Rapture, thus the Wheat can only be Israel. Judea is told to flee into the wilderness, not the Church, because the Church is in Heaven. 

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Revelation Man