Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus said:

Ah this topic, those who saw my post where I introduced myself would know that I hold to Christian Conditionalism, anyway, I have something to share:

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (Mark 9:42-44):
-42: And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
-43: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
-44: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


THE PROPHET ISAIAH (Isaiah 66:23-24):
-23: And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
-24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Those are two totally different contexts.   Jesus is talking about Hell.   Isaiah is talking about the bodies those who are destroyed at Armageddon.  The earth during the millennium will still bear the scars of the Tribulation and the location of the millennial kingdom will be near where that battle takes place.   So Isaiah is not talking about Hell.   You need make sure you check context before linking two passages together.

[BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus]

13 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Those are two totally different contexts.   Jesus is talking about Hell.   Isaiah is talking about the bodies those who are destroyed at Armageddon.  The earth during the millennium will still bear the scars of the Tribulation and the location of the millennial kingdom will be near where that battle takes place.   So Isaiah is not talking about Hell.   You need make sure you check context before linking two passages together.

But isn't Jesus quoting Isaiah?

[Guest shiloh357]

17 minutes ago, BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus said:

But isn't Jesus quoting Isaiah?

No, he is not.

[Ezra]

48 minutes ago, BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus said:

But isn't Jesus quoting Isaiah?

It does not matter. The fact that the fire will never be quenched confirms that there is a reason for an eternal fire to be in place.  That is the real issue.

Conditionalism simply dismisses that and makes up all kinds of nonsensical explanations for why it is not eternal burning and eternal torment.  The same people who reject the doctrine of Hell also reject the deity of Christ and have a false Gospel.

[Hawkeye]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

 

Conditionalism simply dismisses that and makes up all kinds of nonsensical explanations for why it is not eternal burning and eternal torment.  The same people who reject the doctrine of Hell also reject the deity of Christ and have a false Gospel.

Conditionalism doesn't dismiss hell. (Gehenna) the FIRE ITSELF is eternal, meant for Satan & His Demons......... it  is never quenched. It says that eternal punishment does not necc. mean burning. Fire consumes, and when you have fire- you have ashes.  It seems this eternal punishment is simply separation/missing out on heaven.

And it should also be noted that I am not rejecting the doctrine of hell, I am rejecting the traditional church history viewpoint without scriptural basis. The Bible is clear that Gehenna is real. The traditional view wants to say death doesn''t mean death, even though the definition of death is to cease to exist.

I don't reject the deity of Christ either. this , is not a core/salvation issue. This is not a , should not be a divisive issue, because it doesn't change our mission, to evangelize.

Again I say, you WILL NOT FIND Immortal Soul in the Bible for non believers. Show me where.

 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye said:

Fire consumes, and when you have fire- you have ashes.

So all the inhabitants of Hell are simply vaporized?  If this interpretation were true, why would God bother to create Hell? He could vaporize evildoers anywhere (spirit beings or sinners).

[BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

Conditionalism doesn't dismiss hell. (Gehenna) the FIRE ITSELF is eternal, meant for Satan & His Demons......... it  is never quenched. It says that eternal punishment does not necc. mean burning. Fire consumes, and when you have fire- you have ashes.  It seems this eternal punishment is simply separation/missing out on heaven.

And it should also be noted that I am not rejecting the doctrine of hell, I am rejecting the traditional church history viewpoint without scriptural basis. The Bible is clear that Gehenna is real. The traditional view wants to say death doesn''t mean death, even though the definition of death is to cease to exist.

I don't reject the deity of Christ either. this , is not a core/salvation issue. This is not a , should not be a divisive issue, because it doesn't change our mission, to evangelize.

Again I say, you WILL NOT FIND Immortal Soul in the Bible for non believers. Show me where.

 

Amen brother, it should push the mission to evangelize as many have most likely rejected Christianity because of the teachings of eternal conscious torment, obviously we can't take away truths to please unbelievers, but if a doctrine is not as concrete as it seams, it can be used as a tool for evangelism.

 

@Ezra
Saying that we reject the deity of Christ is harsh, what @Hawkeye said is 100% right, this is not a core/salvation issue and it should not divide us.


God Bless

[Guest shiloh357]

6 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

Conditionalism doesn't dismiss hell.

 

It diminishes the importance of it. 

Quote

 (Gehenna) the FIRE ITSELF is eternal, meant for Satan & His Demons......... it  is never quenched. It says that eternal punishment does not necc. mean burning. Fire consumes, and when you have fire- you have ashes.  It seems this eternal punishment is simply separation/missing out on heaven.

First of all, the fires of hell do not follow the same rules as fire in our world.  Secondly, to argue that eternal punishment is separation is not true, because the Bible doesn't describe it that way.

Quote

The traditional view wants to say death doesn''t mean death, even though the definition of death is to cease to exist.

No, the Bible defines death in more ways that simply cessation of existence.   That's the problem.   You are trying to use a rather one dimensional view/definition of death, whereas the Bible is offering a broader definition that refers to a conscious state of separation from God.

The verses used to support the CI view are usually verses that are speaking of physical, not spiritual death.  CI relies on a gross mishandling of the biblical text, particularly OT texts.

[Ezra]

7 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

Again I say, you WILL NOT FIND Immortal Soul in the Bible for non believers. Show me where.

Obviously you have dismissed the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus as a mere "parable" (or perhaps a fairy tale).  If the soul was not immortal neither those two nor Abraham would have been found in Hades. Neither would Christ have descended into the lower parts of the earth for three days and three nights. So you can either give up your false doctrine, or persist in dismissing Scriptures that don't suit it. 

Souls and spirits of both the saved and the unsaved are indeed immortal and that is exactly what the Bible teaches.  Mortality pertains to the human body, and resurrections pertain to making mortal bodies immortal (they live on for ever).  The resurrection of the just pertains to the resurrection of the saints.  The resurrection of the unjust (the resurrection of damnation) pertains to the resurrection of the unsaved. 

The souls and spirits of the saved go directly to be with Christ. Those of the unsaved go directly to Hades.  Soul Sleep is another false doctrine concocted by those who do not believe in an eternal Hell.  These people go back to the OT where Sheol has been translated as "the grave" (incorrectly) but forget all the New Testament teachings. So Conditionalism is another FALSE DOCTRINE also.

To claim that these are not salvation issues is totally false.  People must understand that unless they are saved, they face eternal Hell just as described in the Bible (not as concocted by some).

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16).

[BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus]

@Ezra

1 CORINTHIANS 15:52-53:
-52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
-53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 TIMOTHY 6:16:
-16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


I understand that I am saved from the wrath of God and the penalty of sin, isn't that enough?