Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[wingnut-]

Hello again Enoch,

 

I don't have a lot of time before work, so I'll address as much as I can for now and come back to the rest later.  I'm going to stick with this ongoing discussion for now about Revelation 12, Hosea, and the identity of the woman and the remnant topic.  I am still unclear as to who is who from your viewpoint, so let's break this down and see if we agree or if this is where the confusion is.

 

Revelation 12: ¹³ When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. ¹⁴ The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. ¹⁵ Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. ¹⁶ But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. ¹⁷ Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

We have three characters in this story, the dragon (Satan), the woman (Israel), and the woman's offspring (remnant).  As I understand our discussion this was your position, is that correct?

 

The dragon goes after the woman, he cannot get her for 3 1/2 years, or a time, times and half a time.  The woman is out of the dragon's reach.  The woman is safe.  He even tries using a river to swallow her up, not gonna happen.  Then he is enraged, and goes after her offspring.

 

Conclusion, the woman is safe for 3 1/2 years, her offspring are at war.  You have to settle on who is who in your scenario, the remnant can't be both groups.

 

So let's incorporate the passage you gave from Zechariah into this.

 

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

We have three characters again, the Lord, two parts, and a third part.

 

Two parts is going to be cut off and die, pretty simple.  To me, this group is not found in the Revelation passage.  An argument could be made that this is the woman's offspring, but the fact that they are "cut off" indicates to me that they are unbelievers.

 

The third part will be brought through the fire by the Lord, they will be refined, and they will be believers.  Who in Revelation is going to be brought through by the Lord?  The woman.

 

Then include what Hosea says.

 

Hosea 2:¹⁴ “Therefore I am now going to allure her;
    I will lead her into the wilderness
    and speak tenderly to her.
¹⁵ There I will give her back her vineyards,
    and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
There she will respond as in the days of her youth,
    as in the day she came up out of Egypt.

 

Who came up out of Egypt?  Israel.  The Lord is going to allure her to the wilderness and speak tenderly to her, and she will respond.

 

You said the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, so that seems clear enough, we know this is Israel.  Other consistencies, being led to the wilderness, and the Lord's personal attention.  Scripture confirming scripture, this is good.

 

In comparison to Zechariah, it seems pretty clear to me it isn't 'two parts' because they are cut off and die.  However, it aligns perfectly with 'third part', brought through by the Lord Himself, and then responding to Him.  Again we see scripture confirming itself.

 

There is no doubt the woman is Israel in my mind, and based on what you have posted, we agree on this.  You added the distinction in another post, that they are unbelieving Jews.  We also agree on this, why else would the Lord need to take them aside and speak tenderly to them amidst all the chaos unless salvation was necessary.

 

I also think that the passage from Zechariah shows that the third part is the woman, therein lays the problem with what you have proposed.  In order for your position to be true, the remnant you have in mind has to be the third part from Zechariah, which is why you want to say the remnant is both protected and not protected.  At any rate, I think that is where our differences begin.

 

The bottom line, the woman is safe for 3 1/2 years, Revelation 12 is not vague on this fact.  You could say the woman is therefore the remnant, they are a remnant of Israel after all, so this doesn't contradict the identity of the woman as still being Israel in a loose way, but then the question is, who are the offspring?

 

My comment:  I'll start with the most obvious question, are you saying the remnant are messianic Jews?

Your response: 

They will be.  The "great tribulation" will force them to fish or cut bait.

 

Again... (Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." More accurately translated "Earnestly"

 

Hosea is still addressing the same people he was in chapter 2, their identity as established in the passage I posted is Israel.  Israel came up out of Egypt.  This takes us back to the identity of the 3 characters in Revelation 12, who is the woman?  Is she Israel, or is she the remnant you have in mind?  This passage from the beginning of Hosea 2 may help clear up who Hosea is speaking to.

 

Hosea 2:² “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
    for she is not my wife,
    and I am not her husband.

 

This confirms what you posted earlier, that the Lord had divorced Israel, correct?  So that is more confirmation that Hosea is addressing Israel as a whole, and not just a remnant.  I don't think there is any question as to what the book of Hosea is about, I'm assuming you don't disagree with the brief summary I gave earlier since you didn't object.

 

I hope that helps you understand my position, and the problem I see with yours.  I'll wait for your response, perhaps you can break down how you see these things for me.  For now I'll move on to the next item.

 

My comment:  Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Your response:  How does this Refute my Statement that the OT Saints are not apart of "The Church".  Answer: it doesn't, in any way whatsoever.

 

Revelation 19:

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

⁸ And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

⁹ And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

Righteousness seems to be the key ingredient here, and in many other places in scripture.  The verse says nothing about tribulation saints, Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, or any other type of saint, it just says saints.  As I have continually stated my position, the marriage supper is for all God's children.  I have yet to see a verse that would exclude anyone from this event.

 

Again we see clearly here in Rev 19:7, the marriage of the Lamb is come.

 

Revelation 21:⁹ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

¹¹ Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 

And we see the bride again here.  The passage leaves little doubt that John is saying that New Jerusalem is the bride, in verse 11 he says "her light".  Same event, two chapters apart, so much for chronology.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁷ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

¹⁸ And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

¹⁹ And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

²⁰ And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

²¹ And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

Now let's analyze just this one bowl, and in just this one bowl I will show you why Revelation is not chronologically written.  This passage is the seventh bowl judgement, let's compare it to the seventh trumpet which occurs in chapter 11, five chapters earlier.

 

Revelation 11:¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

Revelation 11:¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

In Revelation 16:18-19 we see the same great earthquake, we see the same earthquake split the city of Jerusalem.  And then of course, there is the conclusion of verse 19, the fall of Babylon.  That occurs in chapter 18, a detailed account of the fall of Babylon, it doesn't happen twice.  We see the great hail in Rev. 11:19 and we also see it in Rev. 16:21.  Same events, multiple places in Revelation, not a chronological story, as visions don't tend to be.

 

Now compare this to the seventh seal.

 

Revelation 8:⁵ And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

 

Looks a lot like Rev. 16:18 to me, eight chapters earlier.  That's all I have time for now, hope that clears up why Revelation is not chronological.  I look forward to your response, God bless.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

You must have missed these scriptures telling us that Christ is the one who makes us pure & presents us to Himself. 

 

 

`Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, & to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,...` (Jude 24)

`& you, who once were alienated & enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He (Christ) has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy & blameless, & irreproachable in His sight...` (Col. 1: 21 & 22)

`...that He (Christ) might present it to Himself a glorious church,....` (Eph. 5: 27)`

 

Marilyn.

 

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

You must have missed these scriptures telling us that Christ is the one who makes us pure & presents us to Himself. 

 

 

 

 

`Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, & to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,...` (Jude 24)

`& you, who once were alienated & enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He (Christ) has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy & blameless, & irreproachable in His sight...` (Col. 1: 21 & 22)

`...that He (Christ) might present it to Himself a glorious church,....` (Eph. 5: 27

)`

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

================================================================================================

 

ok

 

How does this Preclude "The Church" <-------Born Again Christians from being Christ's Wife/Bride?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

========================================================================================================================

 

 

 

Revelation 12: 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

1.  We have three characters in this story, the dragon (Satan), the woman (Israel), and the woman's offspring (remnant).  As I understand our discussion this was your position, is that correct?

 

2.  The bottom line, the woman is safe for 3 1/2 years, Revelation 12 is not vague on this fact.  You could say the woman is therefore the remnant, they are a remnant of Israel after all, so this doesn't contradict the identity of the woman as still being Israel in a loose way, but then the question is, who are the offspring?

 

 

1. You said......The dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel),  the woman's offspring (Remnant).

 

2. Then, You said..... The dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel), The Remnant, then you ask who are the offspring?  See the problem? The Offspring are the Remnant (They are still Jews)

 

And you forgot to bring this passage with you....

 

(Romans 9:27) "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

 

Again,  Israel The Woman...."a Remnant" are still Jews.

 

This passage tells the story (you posted this but didn't actually speak to it):  (Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

Can't be "Totally" protected and be "Afflicted"....... "being spoken to tenderly" @ the same time.  I think you may be taking "The Protection" during the "great tribulation" somewhat to far.

 

Also another name for the "great tribulation" is the "time of Jacob's Trouble".  Who's Jacob?  Who does Christ Warn in the Olivet Discourse?  Greece, Rome, Cyprus, Alexandria, New York, or Jerusalem?

 

 

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

We have three characters again, the Lord, two parts, and a third part.

 

Two parts is going to be cut off and die, pretty simple.  To me, this group is not found in the Revelation passage.

 

This is Zechariah, GOD is speaking to who ("It is my people")? .....The Jews (The Woman). 

 

If you can't find this in Revelation....Then as I asked previously, Please show this event in history?   Here's the following passages....

 

(Zechariah 14:1-4) "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.  {2} For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.  {3} Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.  {4} ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

 

As I said, you may be taking "The Protection" during "the great tribulation" a bit too far. 

 

 

I also think that the passage from Zechariah shows that the third part is the woman, therein lays the problem with what you have proposed.  In order for your position to be true, the remnant you have in mind has to be the third part from Zechariah, which is why you want to say the remnant is both protected and not protected.  At any rate, I think that is where our differences begin.

 

 

The Whole Part is the Woman in Zechariah (See response above)...the third part is the Remnant.  The "through the fire" is the "great tribulation".

 

 

Again... (Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." More accurately translated "Earnestly"

Hosea is still addressing the same people he was in chapter 2, their identity as established in the passage I posted is Israel.  Israel came up out of Egypt.  This takes us back to the identity of the 3 characters in Revelation 12, who is the woman?  Is she Israel, or is she the remnant you have in mind?  This passage from the beginning of Hosea 2 may help clear up who Hosea is speaking to.

Hosea 2:2 “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,

    for she is not my wife,

    and I am not her husband.

This confirms what you posted earlier, that the Lord had divorced Israel, correct?  So that is more confirmation that Hosea is addressing Israel as a whole, and not just a remnant.  I don't think there is any question as to what the book of Hosea is about, I'm assuming you don't disagree with the brief summary I gave earlier since you didn't object.

I hope that helps you understand my position, and the problem I see with yours.  I'll wait for your response, perhaps you can break down how you see these things for me.  For now I'll move on to the next item.

 

 

I have yet to do a complete study in Hosea, so I can't comment.  Yes, He is addressing Israel (The Woman) as the Whole.

 

You have not addressed how The Woman can be "in their affliction" (another phrase for the "great tribulation") and be Totally Protected.....?  You also have major issues with Zechariah 14 above.

 

 

My comment:  Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Your response:  How does this Refute my Statement that the OT Saints are not apart of "The Church".  Answer: it doesn't, in any way whatsoever.

 

Revelation 19:

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

Righteousness seems to be the key ingredient here, and in many other places in scripture.  The verse says nothing about tribulation saints, Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, or any other type of saint, it just says saints.  As I have continually stated my position, the marriage supper is for all God's children.  I have yet to see a verse that would exclude anyone from this event.

 

 

It was Credited to Abraham for Righteousness because he did what?   Born Again Christians "The Church"....our Righteousness comes from CHRIST and Christ alone not from anything we've done or will do.  In Fact, if we try to substitute our "Righteousness" (WORKS) for Christ's Complete Work....it's Blaspheme!!

 

That's what separates us from the OT Covenant.  They will be judged "according to their works".....See: OT Saints/Daniel/Great White Throne ect discussion in my last post.

 

Who's Christ's Bride/Wife?  (Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

 

It is impossible to be "A Christian".....before Pentecost.  Can't explain it any simpler.  Any attempt to refute, is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).

 

Using, as a Basis for your Support, the description of what the bride is clothed in is not a proxy to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Righteousness" or "Saints".

 

 

Again we see clearly here in Rev 19:7, the marriage of the Lamb is come.

 

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 

And we see the bride again here.  The passage leaves little doubt that John is saying that New Jerusalem is the bride, in verse 11 he says "her light".  Same event, two chapters apart, so much for chronology.

 

 

Please show The New Jerusalem...Post Millennium no less, in Revelation 19 @ the Marriage for The Lamb......?  This is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy) x 10^{000000000000000000000000000----->}

 

How can the New Jerusalem occur in Revelation 19 before Christs Return (Second Coming)?

 

You have: The beast and false Prophet yet to be cast into the fire, satan has yet to be chained; the first resurrection to occur, The Millennium, satan then loosed, Final Battle, satan thrown into the lake of fire, Great White Throne Judgement,  First Heaven and First Earth Passed away.......BEFORE Christ's Return to the First Earth.

 

"So much for Chronology"    Please drop the Begging the Question on Steroids (Fallacy)----- "Same Event" and look again...Please.

 

Also as I said....Nobody in the History of the Universe has ever married an Inanimate Object.  It's a Metaphor.  John prepared you here....(Revelation 21:2) "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

 

 

Now let's analyze just this one bowl, and in just this one bowl I will show you why Revelation is not chronologically written.  This passage is the seventh bowl judgement, let's compare it to the seventh trumpet which occurs in chapter 11, five chapters earlier.

 

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

In Revelation 16:18-19 we see the same great earthquake, we see the same earthquake split the city of Jerusalem.  And then of course, there is the conclusion of verse 19, the fall of Babylon.  That occurs in chapter 18, a detailed account of the fall of Babylon, it doesn't happen twice.  We see the great hail in Rev. 11:19 and we also see it in Rev. 16:21.  Same events, multiple places in Revelation, not a chronological story, as visions don't tend to be.

 

Now compare this to the seventh seal.

Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

 

Looks a lot like Rev. 16:18 to me, eight chapters earlier.

 

 

So you're saying all these earthquakes are the same, eh?  This is a Massive Equivocation (Fallacy) and Multiple Begging The Question (Fallacies)

 

(Revelation 8:5) "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

 

(Revelation 11:13) "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

 

(Revelation 11:19) "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

 

(Revelation 16:18-21) "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.  {19} And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.  {20} And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.  {21} And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

 

 

What is the Difference between a "Tenth Part" and "Divided into Three Parts"?  Sound the same to you?

 

How about the difference between:  "an earthquake" "a great earthquake" AND "a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth".  All The same?

 

What is the difference between: "and great hail" AND "a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent"?  What's the "great hail" (Former) missing?

 

Looks like they are all "Uniquely" (Qualitatively/Quantitatively) different an Increasing in Intensity as you move from the Seals to the Vials.

 

You may also want to check this....

 

The Seven Trumpets are often referred to as "The Judgments of the Thirds"...

 

1st Angel:  the third part of Trees were burnt up.

2nd Angel: the third part of the sea became as blood and the third part of sea creatures died and the third part of ships were destroyed.

3rd Angel:  the third part of rivers became bitter (Wormwood).

4th Angel:  the third part of the sun, the third part of the moon, the third part of stars.

5th Angel:  A Break with the Thirds. Bottomless pit the beast and locusts.

6th Angel:  a third part of men were killed.

7th Angel:  A Break with the thirds.

The Seven Vial Judgments essentially bring these to the FULL.  The Vials come After the Trumpet Judgments---- and although correlated with the Trumpets; they: come after/ subsequent, and have their own distinguishing characteristics.

 

Full discussion here: 

 

 

This is not the fall of Babylon, this is only the beginning.......

 

(Revelation 16:19) "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

 

See Revelation Chapters 17 and 18 for a detailed explanation.

 

 

Same events, multiple places in Revelation, not a chronological story, as visions don't tend to be.

 

 

Multiple Begging The Question and Equivocation (Fallacies)  SEE Above IN TOTO

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

You used this scripture (& Eph. 5) as a basis for your doctrine of the Body being the wife / bride.

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

You said - `Are Paul's Disciples Born Again Christians <------- "The Church"? If Yes, The Defense Rests.`

So are you saying that Paul presents the Church, the Body, to Christ?

Marilyn.
 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Marilyn C

[wingnut-]

Hello again Enoch,

 

I was going to go back and finish addressing the earlier post, but maybe we should just continue from your response.

 

My question to you:  1.  We have three characters in this story, the dragon (Satan), the woman (Israel), and the woman's offspring (remnant).  As I understand our discussion this was your position, is that correct?

 

Your response:  1. You said......The dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel),  the woman's offspring (Remnant).

 

I said no such thing, I asked for confirmation as to whether this was your position or not.

 

My question to you:  You could say the woman is therefore the remnant, they are a remnant of Israel after all, so this doesn't contradict the identity of the woman as still being Israel in a loose way, but then the question is, who are the offspring?

 

Your response:  2. Then, You said..... The dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel), The Remnant, then you ask who are the offspring?

 

Again, that is not what I said.  What I said was, you could say that in defense of your position, but then you have to still account for the offspring.  John makes a very clear distinction between these two groups, they are not the same, regardless of how badly you want them to be.

 

Let's break this down verse by verse and establish facts.

 

Revelation 12:¹³ When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

 

1. The dragon pursues the woman.

 

Revelation 12:⁴ The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

 

2.  The woman escapes to the wilderness.

3.  The woman will be taken care of for 3 1/2 years.

4.  The woman is out of Satan's reach for the duration of the time given.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁵ Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.

 

5.  Satan goes to great lengths to get to the woman.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁶ But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

 

6. Despite Satan's extreme effort to get the woman, he cannot.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁷ Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

7.  Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan becomes very angry.

8.  Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan wages war against the rest of her offspring.

9.  The woman's offspring keep God's commands.

10. The woman's offspring hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

Two different groups, one that Satan cannot get at (see facts 4-8), and one that he can. (fact 8)

 

Your comment:  Can't be "Totally" protected and be "Afflicted"....... "being spoken to tenderly" @ the same time.  I think you may be taking "The Protection" during the "great tribulation" somewhat to far.

 

Sure you can, when you consider the circumstances and events happening at the time.  Their temple is going to be defiled, Jerusalem handed over to the Gentiles, they have been forced to flee to the wilderness, with Satan pursuing them.  This all sounds distressing to me, not to mention the judgements going on around them.  While they are physically safe, their emotional state will be all over the place.  It is only reasonable that the Lord would be speaking to them tenderly when you take everything into account.

 

You think I may be taking the protection too far?  I didn't write a single word in scripture.  Your argument is with scripture, not with me.

 

Your comment:  Also another name for the "great tribulation" is the "time of Jacob's Trouble".  Who's Jacob?

 

I'm not convinced that is the case, but that is another argument altogether that I'm not interested in having at this time.  Perhaps sometime in the future should we ever get past some of these more minor details.  That being said, Jacob is a son of Isaac, he wrestled with God, and God changed his name to Israel.  This is the point when Israel enters scripture, but not as a nation, just one man.

 

FYI  I was aware of the fact that Abraham lived before there was an Israel, and I am also aware of the definition of the word Israel.

 

Your question:  Who does Christ Warn in the Olivet Discourse?

 

Jesus is speaking privately to His disciples, so He is addressing the church in my opinion.  I suppose that makes my answer all of the above, plus more.

 

My comment:  Two parts is going to be cut off and die, pretty simple.  To me, this group is not found in the Revelation passage.

Your response:  If you can't find this in Revelation....Then as I asked previously, Please show this event in history?

 

I did not say that I can't find this in Revelation, I said I do not see a particular group in the passage of Revelation we were discussing.  There are only 3 subjects in the passage in question;  the dragon, the woman, and the woman's offspring.  Neither the woman or her offspring fall under the "cut off" and die criteria.  This passage from Romans should help clarify that.

 

Romans 11:¹⁷ If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, ¹⁸ do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. ¹⁹ You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” ²⁰ Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. ²¹ For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

²² Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

It is not that they will be cut off, it is the fact that they will be cut off and die, this is what Zechariah recorded.  The woman is being cared for by the Lord, so they are not cut off.  The woman's offspring keep the commandments and hold fast to their testimony of Jesus, don't see them being cut off either.  I do see where the offspring die though, since they are the group the dragon wages war on.  The dragon, well, yeah, I think he is cut off, but I don't think he is the two thirds Zechariah is talking about.

 

Your comment:  The Whole Part is the Woman in Zechariah (See response above)...the third part is the Remnant.  The "through the fire" is the "great tribulation".

 

Again, you continue to insist on combining two groups that John separates.  If part of your position contradicts scripture, the error is in your position.  I think the identity of the characters is where the problem is.

 

Your comment:  I have yet to do a complete study in Hosea, so I can't comment.

 

I highly recommend it, although the fact it strikes me on a personal level could impact my opinion.

 

Your comment:  You have not addressed how The Woman can be "in their affliction" (another phrase for the "great tribulation") and be Totally Protected.....?  You also have major issues with Zechariah 14 above.

 

I touched on this above, so I'll await your response.  For now i need sleep, so I'm going to have to stop here, God bless.

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

You used this scripture (& Eph. 5) as a basis for your doctrine of the Body being the wife / bride.

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

You said - `Are Paul's Disciples Born Again Christians <------- "The Church"? If Yes, The Defense Rests.`

So are you saying that Paul presents the Church, the Body, to Christ?

Marilyn.

 

 

 

================================================================================================================

 

No I used this as My Basis/Mandate...

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

I used 2 Corinthians as more Secondary or Corroborative to the former. 

 

So are you saying that Paul presents the Church, the Body, to Christ?

 

 

Nope, I'm simply saying that he uses a "Chaste Virgin" -----> A Bride/Wife Symbology, in reference to members of "The Church'.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

==================================================================================================

 

I was going to go back and finish addressing the earlier post, but maybe we should just continue from your response.

 

 

No sir, please go back and address some of those points, especially, but not limited to: Daniel/OT Saints/Great White Throne ect.  They are Uber Material to this discussion.

 

 

My question to you:  1.  We have three characters in this story, the dragon (Satan), the woman (Israel), and the woman's offspring (remnant).  As I understand our discussion this was your position, is that correct?

 

Your response:  1. You said......The dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel),  the woman's offspring (Remnant).

 

I said no such thing, I asked for confirmation as to whether this was your position or not.

 

Your response:  2. Then, You said..... The dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel), The Remnant, then you ask who are the offspring?

 

Again, that is not what I said.  What I said was, you could say that in defense of your position, but then you have to still account for the offspring.  John makes a very clear distinction between these two groups, they are not the same, regardless of how badly you want them to be.

 

 

Yes, then you said this (a bit lower in your reply)...

 

"The bottom line, the woman is safe for 3 1/2 years, Revelation 12 is not vague on this fact.  You could say the woman is therefore the remnant, they are a remnant of Israel after all, so this doesn't contradict the identity of the woman as still being Israel in a loose way, but then the question is, who are the offspring?"

 

It appears I misunderstood what you were saying. 

 

I believe the Remnant is "A PART" of the Woman.  I don't have to account for the "offspring" they are The Remnant (Jews) and already accounted for.

 

Your question as to WHO they are after this Fact, is Tantamount to asking members of the Pittsburgh Steeler's WHO they are; and then when they say, "Pittsburgh Steelers", you ask again, but WHO are you?     What's left....Humans, Carbon Based Units, Proper Names, ect

 

 

Let's break this down verse by verse and establish facts.

 

Revelation 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

 

1. The dragon pursues the woman.

 

Revelation 12:4 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

 

2.  The woman escapes to the wilderness.

3.  The woman will be taken care of for 3 1/2 years.

4.  The woman is out of Satan's reach for the duration of the time given.

 

Revelation 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.

5.  Satan goes to great lengths to get to the woman.

 

Revelation 12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

6. Despite Satan's extreme effort to get the woman, he cannot.

 

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

7.  Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan becomes very angry.

8.  Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan wages war against the rest of her offspring.

9.  The woman's offspring keep God's commands.

10. The woman's offspring hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

Two different groups, one that Satan cannot get at (see facts 4-8), and one that he can. (fact 8)

 

Your comment:  Can't be "Totally" protected and be "Afflicted"....... "being spoken to tenderly" @ the same time.  I think you may be taking "The Protection" during the "great tribulation" somewhat to far.

 

Sure you can, when you consider the circumstances and events happening at the time.  Their temple is going to be defiled, Jerusalem handed over to the Gentiles, they have been forced to flee to the wilderness, with Satan pursuing them.  This all sounds distressing to me, not to mention the judgements going on around them.  While they are physically safe, their emotional state will be all over the place.  It is only reasonable that the Lord would be speaking to them tenderly when you take everything into account.

 

You think I may be taking the protection too far?  I didn't write a single word in scripture.  Your argument is with scripture, not with me.

 

 

 

You make some very good points here; However, when you say two different Groups you're partly right and partly wrong.  Yes, they are distinctive: "The Remnant" and "The Woman"; however, the Remnant are still "A PART' of the Woman, Inherently.

 

The Remnant are the ones satan is most concerned about (those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus) ....for they are the ones that will Petition The LORD to Return.  The Woman (Unbelieving Jews, they aren't seeking Jesus); Ergo, aren't a Threat to satan.....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

****  There is not a More MASSIVE WORD in all of Scripture regarding Christ's Return/End Times than that "till" <----- satan's entire MISSION rests on Preventing It!!

 

 

 

Your comment:  Also another name for the "great tribulation" is the "time of Jacob's Trouble".  Who's Jacob?

 

I'm not convinced that is the case, but that is another argument altogether that I'm not interested in having at this time.  Perhaps sometime in the future should we ever get past some of these more minor details.  That being said, Jacob is a son of Isaac, he wrestled with God, and God changed his name to Israel.  This is the point when Israel enters scripture, but not as a nation, just one man.

 

 

It is the case and is not "another" Argument. Jacob represents Israel.  There are many titles speaking to it...

 

Time of Jacob's Trouble

Time of Affliction

The Day of The LORD

Day of Vengeance

Day of The Lord's Anger

Time of Trouble

Day of Indignation

Time of Evil

 

And 10 or so other ones.  All speaking to the same time period: the "great tribulation".

 

Your question:  Who does Christ Warn in the Olivet Discourse?

 

Jesus is speaking privately to His disciples, so He is addressing the church in my opinion.  I suppose that makes my answer all of the above, plus more.

 

 

On the Contrary, it scuttles 99% of your position.  And it's Scripture, GOD is speaking to all of us.

 

The Church??  How can HE be addressing "The Church" when "The Mystery of the Church" wasn't revealed until it was Paul's Honor to reveal it here....

 

(Ephesians 3:1-6) "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,  {2} If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:  {3} How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,  {4} Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

 

By the Way, this is yet another Proof that scuttles not only OT "Christian" conjuring.... but even any wisp of an idea of "The Church" prior to it's "Revealing". 

 

 

Where and what did Christ SOLELY focus his warning after mentioning the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew?....

(Matthew 24:15-20) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

First: The Abomination of Desolation can only happen in One Place:  Temple in Jerusalem.  And if we go to Daniel 9:27 specifically it says he will cause the Sacrifice and Oblation to Cease.

Do Born Again Christians "The Church" Sacrifice or Oblate (Jew or Gentile)??

Where: Judea.  Not Rome, Egypt, Babylon, New York, Paris ect.

Where do Jews socialize relax in Jerusalem?  On The Rooftops....the Bedrooms are downstairs.

Winter Time:  Roads are plenty slippery and occasionally impassable in Judea in the Winter (Logistics Problem with Fleeing to Mountains)

and Give Suck: With Small Children/Pregnant (Logistics Problem)

Who: Israel

Sabbath Day:  Does "The Church" observe The Sabbath Day?   errrr, minus Seventh Day Adventists?

 

 

It appears you need another "opinion".

 

 

Your comment:  The Whole Part is the Woman in Zechariah (See response above)...the third part is the Remnant.  The "through the fire" is the "great tribulation".

 

Again, you continue to insist on combining two groups that John separates.  If part of your position contradicts scripture, the error is in your position.  I think the identity of the characters is where the problem is.

 

 

Sir, This Zechariah passage is quite clear WHO is being discussed here....

 

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

As I've shown you....I really don't need to show anything; just a plain reading does the job.

 

I'm not "COMBINING" The Groups.....That's your Strawman (Fallacy).  Even though they are delineated specifically in Revelation 12, doesn't PRECLUDE The Remnant as STILL "A PART" of The WOMAN.

 

Drop the Strawman (Fallacy) and the error and contrived contradiction Vaporize.

 

 

Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

 

It is not that they will be cut off, it is the fact that they will be cut off and die, this is what Zechariah recorded.

 

 

Just because this "SYMBOLIC" Reference concludes with the Phrase "cut off" does not Ipso Facto give you a Mandate/Warrant to make a "Literal" Conclusion of a Passage in Zechariah or a Compare and Contrast with said passage; when each respective passage is CLEARLY talking about Two Completely Different Subjects.

 

(Romans 11:13-22) "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:  {14} If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.  {15} For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  {16} For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.  {17} And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;  {18} Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.  {19} Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.  {20} Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  {21} For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.  {22} Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

 

 

What is this Passage Speaking to?  Sounds Like the Clearest WARNING to GENTILES against "Replacement Theology" in ALL of Scripture to me.  

 

 

What is this Passage Speaking to....in Zechariah "in the OT"....?

 

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

Is this speaking to Gentiles?

 

 

Your comment:  I have yet to do a complete study in Hosea, so I can't comment.

 

I highly recommend it, although the fact it strikes me on a personal level could impact my opinion.

 

 

It's on my "to do" list.

[wingnut-]

Hello again Enoch,

 

I'm sorry I haven't been able to address everything as it comes, I assure you that I am more than willing to discuss any of these things in more detail, it's just a matter of finding the time.

 

Your comment:  "So much for Chronology"    Please drop the Begging the Question on Steroids (Fallacy)----- "Same Event" and look again...Please.

 

Is this really necessary?  I understand that your immediate instinct is to defend what you believe, and I also understand that each of us view this from a different perspective, that doesn't mean we can't be respectful.  While you were advising me to take another look, you should have at least examined what I said, I gave you a nice hint earlier and everything.

 

I want to put this whole chronology discussion to bed, so we'll go back to a question I asked you earlier.  Once you have removed islands and mountains, can you remove them again?

 

Revelation 6:¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

 

This takes place after the opening of the 6th seal.

 

Revelation 16:²⁰ Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.

 

This takes place after the 7th angel pours out his bowl.  They are 10 chapters apart, this is the same event.  Since every mountain and island was removed in chapter 6, how are they still there to be removed in chapter 16?  At what point were they put back?

 

This in particular is what first drew my attention to what you refer to as a strawman theory, or fallacy.  In my experience, where there is smoke there is fire, and I am not one to believe in coincidence.  That's just how my mind works, mathematical probabilities and a good eye for details.  The odds of all these similarities I've shared in the last two posts just being coincidence are astronomical.

 

I don't disagree with what you had to say as far as not all of them are exact, but that is not inconsistent with how Revelation is written.  As I stated before, some accounts of events are more detailed than others, so adding more specific information in regards to an earthquake in one place does not mean it cannot be the same earthquake in another place.

 

As far as the effect the earthquake has on Jerusalem, could a city not be split into three parts which causes a tenth of the city to be lost?  Some percentage of the city is going to be destroyed when it is split, correct?  Slight differences in the details does not exclude the possibility that it is the same event.

 

In an earlier post you made in regards to our discussion about the marriage supper there were some things I wanted to touch on.  I just want to clarify my position for you.

 

Your question and comment: 

How can the New Jerusalem occur in Revelation 19 before Christs Return (Second Coming)?

 

You have: The beast and false Prophet yet to be cast into the fire, satan has yet to be chained; the first resurrection to occur, The Millennium, satan then loosed, Final Battle, satan thrown into the lake of fire, Great White Throne Judgement,  First Heaven and First Earth Passed away.......BEFORE Christ's Return to the First Earth.

 

New Jerusalem comes at the very end, the new age, or eternity if you prefer.  That would be after all of these other events, I have never claimed otherwise.  My argument has been and remains, that the marriage supper occurs at the very end, it is a symbolic reference to eternity.  Why?

 

Revelation 21:⁹ One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” ¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

 

I am well aware that one does not marry an inanimate object, but like it or not, John wrote this per God's instruction.  According to John the New Jerusalem is symbolic of the bride, hence, the marriage supper in itself is symbolic of this by proxy.  Considering New Jerusalem doesn't come until the end of the age, then the conclusion is that neither does the marriage supper.  Since it happens at the end, it would include everyone that enters eternity, hence my argument that excluding Old Testament saints doesn't make sense to me.

 

Your comment:  

You make some very good points here; However, when you say two different Groups you're partly right and partly wrong.  Yes, they are distinctive: "The Remnant" and "The Woman"; however, the Remnant are still "A PART' of the Woman, Inherently.

 

The Remnant are the ones satan is most concerned about (those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus) ....for they are the ones that will Petition The LORD to Return.  The Woman (Unbelieving Jews, they aren't seeking Jesus); Ergo, aren't a Threat to HIM.....

 

If the woman is no threat to the dragon, why is he pursuing her?  Why does he try to swallow her up with a river?  Why is he so angry he cannot get at her?  It appears to me that the woman is the threat, she is his focus.

 

The problem with trying to say the remnant is the woman and the offspring leads right back to where our discussion began.  How can they be both protected and not protected at the same time?  They can't.  The problem remains in the identity of the characters, your scenario doesn't fit.

 

It appears more likely that the woman represents the remnant Isaiah spoke of, which would mean the offspring represent someone else.

 

The problem I see with the offspring being Jewish..... they hold fast their testimony about Jesus.  Messianic Jews this would be applicable, but your position has the rapture occurring already, which means Messianic Jews would not be here anymore.  You said earlier when I asked about this, that they would be Messianic Jews, meaning of course that they come to salvation after you have the rapture occurring.  But unbelieving Jews do not hold fast their testimony about Jesus, because they don't believe in Jesus, so they cannot make up this group.  The offspring are believers.

 

That's all I have time for now, God bless.

 

 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

======================================================================================================================

 

 

I'm sorry I haven't been able to address everything as it comes, I assure you that I am more than willing to discuss any of these things in more detail, it's just a matter of finding the time.

 

 

No worries, Take your time.

 

And by the way...I just started my study of Hosea...when I forgot I had this thread up and I was going to close it for the day to focus on Hosea; but alas, you posted.  So it is YOUR Fault, I'm not up to speed  .

 

 

"So much for Chronology"    Please drop the Begging the Question on Steroids (Fallacy)----- "Same Event" and look again...Please.

 

Is this really necessary?  I understand that your immediate instinct is to defend what you believe, and I also understand that each of us view this from a different perspective, that doesn't mean we can't be respectful.

 

 

First of all...my response was elicited from what you said.... "So much for Chronology" and the substance you provided to arrive, thereof.

 

Telling you to please drop the Begging The Question (Fallacy)...... is not disrespectful sir; it's just, "Please drop The Begging The Question (Fallacy)".  And it wasn't prompted by a defense/offense/cereal/flowers/lunch or anything else, it was prompted when you invoked the Fallacy (Multiple Times).

 

There are no emotional connotations with Violations of Logic....one either commits them or they don't.  You did, I pointed it out.  If you do it again...I will point it out again.  No "Disrespect" intended.  

 

 

I want to put this whole chronology discussion to bed, so we'll go back to a question I asked you earlier.  Once you have removed islands and mountains, can you remove them again?

 

Revelation 6:14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

This takes place after the opening of the 6th seal.

 

Revelation 16:20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.

 

This takes place after the 7th angel pours out his bowl.  They are 10 chapters apart, this is the same event.  Since every mountain and island was removed in chapter 6, how are they still there to be removed in chapter 16?  At what point were they put back? 

 

 

 

 

I already put this "Chronology" discussion to bed Quite Abruptly with the "New Jerusalem"---- Rev 19, and "The Earthquake"/Hail" et al erroneous conflation.  How do you think this is gonna end?

 

So you're saying these 2 are speaking to the same event....

 

(Revelation 6:14) "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

 

(Revelation 16:20) "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

 

 

Thus (according to you):  "MOVED out of their places"  =  "fled away" and "were not found".

 

Question #1:  Can I "move" something, yet still have it not "Fled away"?  If I "Move" my Coffee Cup from my Computer Desk to my Dresser (in the same room) has it "Fled Away"?

 

Question #2:  Can I "move" something, yet still be able to "Find It"?

 

Anything else?

 

 

This in particular is what first drew my attention to what you refer to as a strawman theory, or fallacy.  In my experience, where there is smoke there is fire, and I am not one to believe in coincidence.  That's just how my mind works, mathematical probabilities and a good eye for details.  The odds of all these similarities I've shared in the last two posts just being coincidence are astronomical.

 

 

And as I said, you need to go back and Re-Assess.  The Events/Judgments speak to many of the same things; However the distinguishing characteristics of them "Increase in Intensity" from the Seals to the Vials, which they do.  SEE: Trumpets---"Judgments of the Thirds" and discussion link I provided.

 

 

As far as the effect the earthquake has on Jerusalem, could a city not be split into three parts which causes a tenth of the city to be lost?  Some percentage of the city is going to be destroyed when it is split, correct?  Slight differences in the details does not exclude the possibility that it is the same event.

 

 

The issue is not "could it not" or "possibly" it's what Scripture Plainly says.  Where do we draw the line...could the city be split into 3 parts and 1/10/ 1/20 1/52, 1/1005, of the city be lost?  It could fit into any scenario you wish.

 

That's not what the passage says or any wisp of an implication thereof.  GOD'S WORD is Uber Precise....so NO it did not, is the answer.  Be careful with "Artistic Licence" and 2nd, 3rd, 4th order extrapolations of effects----- then conclusions drawn from those extrapolations.

 

 

In an earlier post you made in regards to our discussion about the marriage supper there were some things I wanted to touch on.  I just want to clarify my position for you.

 

Your question and comment:

How can the New Jerusalem occur in Revelation 19 before Christs Return (Second Coming)?

 

You have: The beast and false Prophet yet to be cast into the fire, satan has yet to be chained; the first resurrection to occur, The Millennium, satan then loosed, Final Battle, satan thrown into the lake of fire, Great White Throne Judgement,  First Heaven and First Earth Passed away.......BEFORE Christ's Return to the First Earth.

 

1. New Jerusalem comes at the very end, the new age, or eternity if you prefer.  That would be after all of these other events, I have never claimed otherwise.                                                                                                       2. My argument has been and remains, that the marriage supper occurs at the very end, it is a symbolic reference to eternity.   

 

 

1. Sir, you claimed that New Jerusalem was the Bride and the Marriage Supper occurs in Revelation 19.  I Summarily Refuted it.

 

2.     I've summarily refuted this 3 times now.....This is the last time:

 

What does this say....

 

(Revelation 19:7) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

 

Is Revelation 19:7 @ the very end?  No it is NOT. In fact, it occurs before Christ Returns (KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS) And....@ LEAST A Thousand Years before The New Jerusalem.

 

If you have a problem with this simple passage, your argument is with GOD'S WORD, not me. 

 

 

If the woman is no threat to the dragon, why is he pursuing her?  Why does he try to swallow her up with a river?  Why is he so angry he cannot get at her?  It appears to me that the woman is the threat, she is his focus.

 

 

satan has been pursuing her and persecuting her ever since Exodus and is more or less the story of the Old Testament IN TOTO.  So you'll forgive me, if I am absolutely dumbfounded by the question.

 

Why is satan so angry @ her?  Well she gave birth to the man child (Jesus) that will CRUSH his Head. I don't think satan particularly likes that...he may harbor some ill feelings.

 

 

I say again....

 

The Remnant are the ones satan is most concerned about (those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus) ....for they are the ones that will Petition The LORD to Return.  The Woman (Unbelieving Jews, they aren't seeking Jesus); Ergo, aren't a Threat to satan.....

(Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

**** There is not a More MASSIVE WORD in all of Scripture regarding Christ's Return/End Times than that "till" <----- satan's entire MISSION rests on Preventing It!!

 

What is particularly confusing about this?

 

 

The problem with trying to say the remnant is the woman and the offspring leads right back to where our discussion began.  How can they be both protected and not protected at the same time?  They can't.  The problem remains in the identity of the characters, your scenario doesn't fit.

 

 

Ok, I'm not explaining this again.  Go back and review the previous 3 rebuttals.

 

 

The problem I see with the offspring being Jewish..... they hold fast their testimony about Jesus.  Messianic Jews this would be applicable, but your position has the rapture occurring already, which means Messianic Jews would not be here anymore.

 

 

That's right.  That's why I said The "great tribulation" (Jacob's Trouble) will force them "A Part" of the Woman (Jewish Unbelievers) to fish or cut bait....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

And lastly..... "The problem I see with the offspring being Jewish" ; of course it should read: "The problem I see with the Offspring of the Woman's Seed being Jewish".  

 

Or in other words...

 

"The problem I see with the Offspring of the Jews being Jewish...".   Still have a Problem?