Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Montana Marv]

 

Salty

 

 

Then rest of mankind (2/3's) who were not killed by the three plagues continued to worship demons and idols, per Rev 9:20.  And they repented not.  It cannot get much clearer than that.  A strong delusion.  Yet, I will remove the sin of this land in a single day (Zech 3:9),  The Second Coming.

 

I cannot accept a demon and idol worshiping Church during this period of time, or at all.  So this Post - Trib doctrine theory of many is out the window.  There is no substance to the Post - Trib theory.  They cannot even get the scenes in Heaven and on Earth correct.

 

A know this is quite sharp.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Marv, who then do you believe is on the earth to be gathered by the angels as per Matthew 24?  At the second coming, the angels gather the elect, and others are left behind. So surely you also believe in two groups of people during the tribulation?  How would you explain the tribulation "elect" , are they included in the "rest of mankind" who are idol worshippers? 

 

Argosy

 

The remnant of Israel; the one third who did not die during the refining process (Zech 13: 8,9).  The 144,000, others - people from every nation, tribe, and language.   Those who did not receive the mark of the beast or worship his image.   The Church is gathered from one end of heaven to the other (His Fathers House).

 

No, the elect, may not know they are the elect until near the end.  Since the remaining 2/3's of mankind continue to worship demons and idols and did not repent of their sinful nature; this does not preclude that some of these remaining 2/3's of mankind ( may become some of the elect at a future date or time) from the 6th Trumpet, since there is an angel flying in mid air proclaiming the eternal Gospel to those who live on earth (Rev 14: 6,7).  If there is an angel witnessing, there is no Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

I don't know of any pre,mid or post trib  passages either.  I just believe that when I read Tribulation I see punishment being being poured on world for the sins of the world.  We as Christians have already been forgiven for our sins at Calvary.  Our sins, past , present and future are already  covered under the blood of Jesus and His finished work at the cross.  To be judged again and to live through the tribulation would be like what the law calls,  "Double Jeopardy".  This is just my opinion.

 

The only reason one would think of our going through the tribulation as being a judgment upon us from God is by listening to the fear mongers who want us to believe we are gonna' be raptured prior to it, which idea is not written in God's Word.

 

BE SCARED, BE SCARED, that's how the Pre-trib Rapture charlatans want us to react! Now is that any kind of mind able to make a STAND for our Lord Jesus and give a Testimony for Him??? No, of course not, it is instead a sign of weakness in the Faith.

 

Instead we are to put on the whole Armour of God, so as to make a 'stand' in that "evil day"! (Eph.6).

 

Satan and his workers upon this earth have a very... short time to go, and they KNOW... it! They love nothing better in these last days than to toy with the minds and hearts of God's People. Don't let them do it! Stand up like a child of God!

[Salty]

I think the vast majority of Christians will be killed by the two beasts......     Not sure I see the great benefit of living through all that wrath myself.

 

 

 

Of course you would think that if you continually allow yourself to be bombarded by the Pre-trib secret Rapture doctors, for that's all they preach for the tribulation time, WWIII and death to all Christians, agreeing with all the stupid Hollywood movies and Left-behind junk.

 

We're all going to go through it, but it's obvious only SOME of us are prepared to make the 'stand' that our Lord Jesus expects us to for the tribulation, remaining strong in The Faith, waiting for Him to come. It won't be a time to run in fear from Christ's enemies, for that is not how God's People do things. We don't have to run and hide, Christ promised us the Victory and we WILL... have it, either with you, or without you, your choice.

 

When the Dalton gang came to town in the old west, the townspeople finally got fed up with their trying to take over their town, and those townspeople brought the Dalton gang down!!! And that is what we WILL do to Christ's enemies here on earth DURING the tribulation by giving His Witness AGAINST them by The Holy Spirit. Our Lord Jesus said all our adversaries won't even be able to gainsay nor resist what The Holy Spirit will give us to speak in that "hour" (Luke 21:12-15)

[Salty]

Argosy

 

 

The remnant of Israel; the one third who did not die during the refining process (Zech 13: 8,9).  The 144,000, others - people from every nation, tribe, and language.   Those who did not receive the mark of the beast or worship his image.   The Church is gathered from one end of heaven to the other (His Fathers House).

 

No, the elect, may not know they are the elect until near the end.  Since the remaining 2/3's of mankind continue to worship demons and idols and did not repent of their sinful nature; this does not preclude that some of these remaining 2/3's of mankind ( may become some of the elect at a future date or time) from the 6th Trumpet, since there is an angel flying in mid air proclaiming the eternal Gospel to those who live on earth (Rev 14: 6,7).  If there is an angel witnessing, there is no Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

That theory completely leaves out the matter of God's two witnesses and the two candlesticks (2 Churches) in Rev.11 making a stand for Christ during the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe (tribulation timing).

 

It also denies the Scripture evidence about the dragon making war upon Christ's saints for the tribulation.

 

And it also denies that Jesus was speaking to His Church with His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

 

How much Scripture evidence does one need to deny to show they are not listening to our Lord Jesus in His Word???

[Montana Marv]

 

Argosy

 

 

The remnant of Israel; the one third who did not die during the refining process (Zech 13: 8,9).  The 144,000, others - people from every nation, tribe, and language.   Those who did not receive the mark of the beast or worship his image.   The Church is gathered from one end of heaven to the other (His Fathers House).

 

No, the elect, may not know they are the elect until near the end.  Since the remaining 2/3's of mankind continue to worship demons and idols and did not repent of their sinful nature; this does not preclude that some of these remaining 2/3's of mankind ( may become some of the elect at a future date or time) from the 6th Trumpet, since there is an angel flying in mid air proclaiming the eternal Gospel to those who live on earth (Rev 14: 6,7).  If there is an angel witnessing, there is no Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

That theory completely leaves out the matter of God's two witnesses and the two candlesticks (2 Churches) in Rev.11 making a stand for Christ during the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe (tribulation timing).

 

It also denies the Scripture evidence about the dragon making war upon Christ's saints for the tribulation.

 

And it also denies that Jesus was speaking to His Church with His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

 

How much Scripture evidence does one need to deny to show they are not listening to our Lord Jesus in His Word???

 

Salty

 

What I posted denies nothing;  It is complete agreement with Scripture.

 

The two candlesticks are either Enoch and Elijah, or Moses and Elijah.  Not two Church's  They prophesy for 42 months,  They make their appearance just before the A/D is set up.  Their appearance is what prompts the A/C to set up the A/D.  And they die before the end of the 70th Week.  Prior to Armageddon

 

The Olivet Discourse is also talking to Israel as a nation.  When you see standing Flee.

 

When one tries to change Prophecy, that is the one who is not listening to God.   70 - Sevens are decreed for Daniels people and holy city to:

 

Those tribulation saints, those who went into captivity, those not killed by the sword (Rev 13).  From the 1st half (42 months) of the week into the second 42 months.  These are those who the Dragon pursues once he cannot catch Israel. and this after the A/D is set up.

 

I am in complete agreement with Scripture.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

On the 6th Vial Jesus is still warning His Church which is on earth to keep their garments because He will come "as a thief", which of course shows His coming is not until the 7th Vial.

 

Christ's Olivet Discourse, which is a revealing of end time events, is ONLY for and to His Church of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, not to unbelieving Israel.  Unbelieving Israel doesn't even recognize The New Covenant nor The New Testament writings. The pre-trib preacher who made that idea up that the Olivet Discourse is a Message to unbelieving Israel really showed his Biblical ignorance.

 

Nowhere in God's Word does it teach that Jesus gathers believers on Him at different times. That is a man-made doctrine.

 

Per Christ Jesus in Rev.1, the candlesticks represent the Churches.

 

The Pre-trib secret Rapture doctors are of course against all of the above because it reveals Christ's Church goes through the "great tribulation", which is why they deny the written meaning of those Scriptures. They take advantage of how God puts a description of a singular event in more than one Book of The Bible by instead treating them as separate multiple instances, like they do with saying the "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4 is not the same coming of Christ as Apostle Paul's "last trump" event of 1 Cor.15.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Salty

 

 

Then rest of mankind (2/3's) who were not killed by the three plagues continued to worship demons and idols, per Rev 9:20.  And they repented not.  It cannot get much clearer than that.  A strong delusion.  Yet, I will remove the sin of this land in a single day (Zech 3:9),  The Second Coming.

 

I cannot accept a demon and idol worshiping Church during this period of time, or at all.  So this Post - Trib doctrine theory of many is out the window.  There is no substance to the Post - Trib theory.  They cannot even get the scenes in Heaven and on Earth correct.

 

A know this is quite sharp.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Marv, who then do you believe is on the earth to be gathered by the angels as per Matthew 24?  At the second coming, the angels gather the elect, and others are left behind. So surely you also believe in two groups of people during the tribulation?  How would you explain the tribulation "elect" , are they included in the "rest of mankind" who are idol worshippers? 

 

Argosy

 

The remnant of Israel; the one third who did not die during the refining process (Zech 13: 8,9).  The 144,000, others - people from every nation, tribe, and language.   Those who did not receive the mark of the beast or worship his image.   The Church is gathered from one end of heaven to the other (His Fathers House).

 

No, the elect, may not know they are the elect until near the end.  Since the remaining 2/3's of mankind continue to worship demons and idols and did not repent of their sinful nature; this does not preclude that some of these remaining 2/3's of mankind ( may become some of the elect at a future date or time) from the 6th Trumpet, since there is an angel flying in mid air proclaiming the eternal Gospel to those who live on earth (Rev 14: 6,7).  If there is an angel witnessing, there is no Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

 

Ok I see your position.  As a post-tribber I see the "men" referred to as being those described in verse 4, specifically those with the mark. From verse 6 the chapter just refers to these men, as "men" or "mankind" without explaining every time that the men referred to are those with the mark. But context from verse 6 is clear the wording is referring to those with the mark. Also the 6th trumpet is descibing Armageddon, the gathering armies, and we get raptured before this war, and so the rest of mankind could also be referring to those left behind, earlier on the day of the Lord.

[Salty]

Also the 6th trumpet is descibing Armageddon, the gathering armies, and we get raptured before this war, and so the rest of mankind could also be referring to those left behind, earlier on the day of the Lord.

 

 

I thought you didn't believe in a pre-tribulational gathering of The Church by our Lord Jesus?

 

The Armageddon event is not on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe. It's on the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Rev.11.

 

The time of God's two witnesses that prophecy in Jerusalem is for the last 1260 days of the Book of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (Dan.9:27). We are told specifically they will prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days before they are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (Rev.11). The Gentiles are given to tread the holy city for 42 months, the same time of reign the dragon of Rev.13 is given to have power. Those are tribulation events. Armageddon happens at the end of the tribulation per Rev.16.

 

So, if Christ's Church is not here anymore during that 1260 days of those two witnesses prophesying, then it means to believe in a pre-tribulational or mid-trib rapture of the Church, which idea is not written in God's Word.

 

Those on the Pre-trib doctrine of course will not agree that the events in Rev.9 about the locust army are tribulation spiritual events, because the Pre-trib fiction writers (like Hal Lindsey) push books to try and show that's about Red China, etc., coming upon Israel with a multi-million man army. That's nothing but a disinformation campaign of their's to scare the deceived into believing the tribulation is going to be about all-out war.

 

The working of the locusts of Rev.9 is about the locust army God first revealed in the Book of Joel. God mentioned four different locust types to show their working over the earth in four stages. The 5th trumpet - 1st woe is when they started, but with the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe is when they will complete with the Antichrist coming. The four angels bound at the river Euphrates are loosing the coming Antichrist, the king mentioned that's over those locusts. And that's the tribulation start time, the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, with the final 7th trumpet - 3rd woe about Jesus' coming.

[ARGOSY]

 

Also the 6th trumpet is descibing Armageddon, the gathering armies, and we get raptured before this war, and so the rest of mankind could also be referring to those left behind, earlier on the day of the Lord.

 

 

I thought you didn't believe in a pre-tribulational gathering of The Church by our Lord Jesus?

 

The Armageddon event is not on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe. It's on the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Rev.11.

 

The time of God's two witnesses that prophecy in Jerusalem is for the last 1260 days of the Book of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (Dan.9:27). We are told specifically they will prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days before they are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (Rev.11). The Gentiles are given to tread the holy city for 42 months, the same time of reign the dragon of Rev.13 is given to have power. Those are tribulation events. Armageddon happens at the end of the tribulation per Rev.16.

 

So, if Christ's Church is not here anymore during that 1260 days of those two witnesses prophesying, then it means to believe in a pre-tribulational or mid-trib rapture of the Church, which idea is not written in God's Word.

 

 

You are correct, I am post-trib. I believe in 3.5 future years only. Therefore I overlap all mentions of 3.5 years instead of splitting them into 2 x 3.5 year periods. You would be surprised how well everything fits. 

 

Regarding the 2 witnesses in Rev 11, this means they start their ministry near the start of the beast's 42 month  reign. They seem to have a Jewish connection (two olive trees) and their period of protection for 3.5 years then overlaps the 3.5 years of protection for Israel (the woman in Rev 12). They get resurrected at the end of the final 3.5 years which is the same time as the resurrection of the church (post-trib)

 

They preach during the 2nd woe, which precedes the third woe which is the actual second coming. This means their preaching occurs just before the second coming. The timing of chapter 11 (the two witnesses) is around the 6th trumpet which is the gathering of the armies just before the 7th trumpet. I associate this gathering of armies with Armageddon (6th trumpet) which occurs just before the seventh trumpet (the second coming)

 

And so everything fits.

[Salty]

 

They preach during the 2nd woe, which precedes the third woe which is the actual second coming. This means their preaching occurs just before the second coming. The timing of chapter 11 (the two witnesses) is around the 6th trumpet which is the gathering of the armies just before the 7th trumpet. I associate this gathering of armies with Armageddon (6th trumpet) which occurs just before the seventh trumpet (the second coming)

 

And so everything fits.

 

 

But placing the Armageddon event on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe goes against even what you just said in your previous paragraph about the timing of God's two witnesses and Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet.

 

The timing of the 6th Vial and 6th Trumpet events are together. But that's not the battle of Armageddon, but only the preparation for it. Yet Rev.9 shows the locust army attack on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe.

 

So I don't understand how one could misunderstand what kind of attack it is those locusts will do, since it is tribulation timing when they do their thing, and the tribulation timing is about spiritual deception, not physical war like Armageddon will be by Christ's army from Heaven.

 

The tribulation events with false worship is the highlight event for the end of this world. That's why our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned His Church against deception for that time, the strong delusion Apostle Paul mentioned involving the Antichrist setup as God in the temple at Jerusalem. This is why Jesus used such strong symbolism in Rev.9 about the locust working for that time on earth.