Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[justfaith]

Matthew 24
24:27 - coming (Parousia)
24:30 - clouds
24:31 - sound of a trumpet
24:31 - gather together
24:36 - day or hour
24:43 - a thief
24:39 - took them all away
24:42 – watch

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 
4:15 - coming (Parousia) 
4:17 - clouds 
4:16 - shout, voice trump 
4:17 - caught up together 
5:1 – times and seasons 
5:2 - a thief 
5:3 - sudden destruction 
5:6 - watch

[Marilyn C]

Hi Butero,

 

I too am a pre-trib believer. However that scripture in Matt. 24: 36 - 42 is not the rapture but to do with the Day of the Lord.

Here are my reasons why. 

 

1. The Body of Christ is `NOT in darkness, that the day should over take you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4) But we will come together & encourage `one another; & all the more as you see the day drawing near.` (Heb. 10: 25)

 

2. The revelation of the Body of Christ is not revealed in the Gospels.

 

3. As in the days of Noah, ...they did not understand until the flood came & took them all away...` (Matt. 24: 39) It is the wicked that get taken away, not the good. (Matt. 25: 46  &  Rev. 19: 20 & 21)

 

 

To understand why there is a rapture we need to know why Christ is building His Body & what is its eternal purpose. Then the details will be understood.

[Marilyn C]

Hi justfaith,

 

Now as I`ve just said & will show you also, in Matthew 24: 43 the Lord is saying He will come as a thief in the night to those in darkness. However in 1 Thess. 5: 4 the Lord is saying through Paul that we, the Body of Christ are NOT in darkness, & thus that day will NOT overtake us.

 

Wonderful words of hope. Marilyn.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Marilyn C

[^j^]

I took in a kitty rescue today. The woman who brought the cat to me started talking about politics and said she thinks it's the end times with all that's happening now.

 

Could be the tribulation. One never knows. But the other day  I was listening to an old broadcast on Family Talk Sirius radio and a sermon by Dr. David Jeremiah. He said if we start seeing the antichrist acting out in politics or elsewhere in the world we should worry. Because per the scriptures the rapture has come and we've been left behind.   Wouldn't that be a blip?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

Ok, let me try my hand in this...

 

First let me say that I do understand where you are coming from and I try very hard not to state opinion as fact.  And pre-tribbers are all guilty of using all the 'evidence' that you have stated in your OP.  But, I would have to say that posttribbers are just as guilty of this as pretribbers are.  Before I get started, let me qualify something.  I have yet to meet or talk with a single pretribber who does not belief that Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the tribulation.  Both pretribbers and posttribbers believe this to be true.  I have yet to meet a single pretribber who has really studied this topic who does not believe that there is a resurrection at the end of the tribulation.  If we both believe that Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, then proving that Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation does not prove either point. This would be like one person saying that the ocean is wet and salty, and the other says that it is wet and fresh, and the second one spending all of his time proving that the ocean is wet.

 

One of the main differences is that a posttribber believes that this resurrection is the rapture, and pretribbers do not.  ( stating that they are the same is just as much opinion as the 'evidence' that you are trying to stay away from )  So if there is scriptural evidence for believing that the resurrection that takes place at the end of the tribulation is not the rapture, then it by definition is evidence for a pretribulation rapture.  or at least a non posttrib rapture.

 

So this is where I will be directing this post.  First lets consider the nature of the rapture.  What is the rapture?  The rapture is the 'catching away' of the Bride of Christ.  Who is the Bride of Christ?  Everyone who is saved.  They make up the 'Church' and the 'Church' is 'Bride'.  In the old Testament, you had two types of people, the Children of Israel and the Gentiles.  If you were not part of the Children of Israel, then you were a Gentile, plain and simple.  In the New Testament, we also  have two types of people.  The Church, those people who are saved, and everyone else.  You are either saved or not saved.  If you are saved, then you are in the Bride, if you are not, then you are not.  There is no such thing as being partially saved.  No matter what you believe as far as OSAS, most Christians believe that you are either saved or lost. 

 

At the moment of the rapture, you are either saved or lost.  If you are saved, then you go up in the rapture, if you are lost, then you don't.  Pretrib or posttrib, doesn't matter.

 

1 Cor 15:51  51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 

So whether you are dead or alive, if you are saved you will go into the rapture.  At this moment in time, there will be two types of people in the world.  Glorified believers, and lost unbelievers.  

 

Now when Christ returns, he fights the war of Armageddon, after which, he has the Judgment of the Sheep and Goats.  Matt 25:31-46.  If you believe in a post-tribulation rapture, then by definition, the sheep would be the glorified believers, and the goats would be everyone else.  What does he tell the Goats?  Matt 25:45-46  45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. 

So all the unbelievers are sent away into everlasting punishment.  And we begin the Millennium Reign of Christ with all believers, and if you are a post tribber, then everyone left has a glorified body, because the scripture says, we will all be changed.

But if that is true, then how is the earth repopulated during the Millennium?  People in glorified bodies do not marry, and since sex outside of marriage is a sin, we know that glorified bodies will not procreate.  Where do the children come from?  

Isaiah 65:20  20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Does the post trib rapture explain this verse?  no it does not.

Does a pretrib rapture explain it?  Yes it does.  We are raptured before the tribulation, God's focus turns again to Israel.  At the end of the tribulation, you have believers who have died during the tribulation, believers in their natural bodies who are still alive, and the glorified saints of the church in Heaven.  The Bride returns with Christ, the tribulation believers who have died are resurrected at the end of the tribulation, and the believers who are still alive in their natural bodies.  Every man woman and child who is still alive on the earth will be brought before Christ, and He will separate them like the sheep from the goats, the unbelievers are sent away, but the sheep, the ones still in their natural bodies are allowed to marry and repopulate the earth.  Their children will have children, and so on and so forth.

 

A pretrib rapture satisfies the Jesus' statement of the Judgment of the Sheep  and Goats in Matt 25, it satisfies Paul's statement of all being changed in 1 Cor, and allows for the children of the Millennium in Isaiah.  A Post tribulation rapture by it's definition must violate one of these statements.  

 

As Iron sharpens Iron, 

Joshua David

 

 

 

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This is very well put together Joshua, very insightful.

 

I'd like to add something here regarding the Sheep and Goats that may be illuminating and jumps off the page (I'll highlight them)....

 

(Matthew 25:31-41) "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  {32}  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:  {33}  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.  {34}  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  {35}  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:  {36}  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  {37}  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  {38}  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  {39}  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  {40}  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.  {41}  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

 

 

I have to admit, I read this passage quite a number of times and I never saw it.  (Happens all the Time )  Those question marks (?) Speak Volumes!!  Why....Clearly, the Sheep don't know they're Sheep!

 

Jesus said more or less....that these "Sheep" helped "my brethren".  Who are Jesus' Brethren?  

 

The only conclusion is "The Sheep" helped either the Tribulation Saints (Converted during the Great Tribulation) and/or the 144,000.

 

 

A pretrib rapture satisfies the Jesus' statement of the Judgment of the Sheep  and Goats in Matt 25, it satisfies Paul's statement of all being changed in 1 Cor, and allows for the children of the Millennium in Isaiah.  A Post tribulation rapture by it's definition must violate one of these statements.

 

 

 Again,very well done.

 

 

How about this one (or 2 )....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

 

So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib.

 

 

Moreover, 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

 

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the Above Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post.

[Enoch2021]

Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:

 

• a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation
• an invisible coming of Jesus for the church
• a two part second advent
• a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church

 

To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:

 

• Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief.
• Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence.
• Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation

Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

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Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:

 

    1.  -a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation

    2. -an invisible coming of Jesus for the church

    3.  -a two part second advent

    4. -a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church

 

 

 

1. What Secret Coming? .....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-4) "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  {2} For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  {3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  {4} But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

 

 

How can Jesus come "as a" thief in the night (Implying UNKNOWN Time) when you have Christians on the Earth that know Daniel 9:27 like the back of their hand and as soon as they see or hear the Abomination of Desolation (which "Kicks Off" the Great Tribulation) will proceed to Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return, sir??? 

 

 

2.  Invisible? ....

 

(1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

 

3. a two part advent.  Yes, it's very clear....

 

From above (The Rapture).... Exhibit A:  "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God".

 

Exhibit B:  (Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

See the difference?

 

 

4.  a Scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church versus His coming with His Church ?

 

(SEE: #3 above with Exhibit A and B)

 

 

Also

 

(Revelation 19:7-9) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

 

How can HIS Wife ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) be in Heaven and has "made herself ready" be there and @ the same time be on Earth going through the Great Tribulation??

 

and....

 

(Revelation 19:13-14) "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

 

How can His Wife ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) come with HIM, post Marriage Supper (In Heaven), to the Earth when she is still on the Earth going through the Great Tribulation??

 

 

 

To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:

 

     1. -Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion,             and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief.    

     2. -Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence.

     3. -Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of Go           and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation

 

 

 

1.  See detailed Support above IN TOTO.

 

2.  I'd say that's pretty powerful compelling circumstantial evidence.  It's Tantamount to Americans being absent from a story about the Revolutionary War.

 

3. Prove that the Great Tribulation is in fact the Wrath of GOD?

 

(Revelation 6:16-17) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" 

 

(Revelation 11:18) "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

 

(Revelation 14:10) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

 

(Revelation 14:19) "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

 

(Revelation 15:1) "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

 

(Revelation 15:7) "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

 

(Revelation 16:1) "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

 

(Revelation 16:19) "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

 

(Revelation 19:15) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

 

 

Good?  Your only recourse is to state that the events of the Book of Revelation are not the Great Tribulation; If so, then   .  Or the Church is clearly Identified somewhere in Revelation AND is clearly shown being protected.  Please show this....?

 

 

This is not even speaking to you showing where "The Church"/ Born Again Christians....98% of which are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's Time), are RESURRECTED and walking around going through the Great Tribulation ....?

 

 

 

Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine.

 

 

So you juxtapose "Statements of Faith" and the "Nature of Evidence".  Hmm    

 

Biblical Faith---- (Hebrews 11:1) "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

"Faith" and "Evidence" go hand in hand, Scripturally.

 

You must be referring to "Blind Faith"---- Belief without substance or evidence.  Otherwise, you just contradicted yourself.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I just came across this thread, so if this scripture has been discussed, sorry for repeating it.  This to me is the most compelling Biblical evidence for the rapture.

 

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Watch therefore:  for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 

Matthew 24:36-42

 

The conditions you read about when this event takes place seems like a rather ordinary time.  People are just living their lives like normal.  At the time of Noe, people were warned about the coming flood, and didn't believe him.  They saw Noe building an ark, and they scoffed.  Today, people are being warned about the coming tribulation period, and they don't believe.  They are told about the Lord coming back to take his people out of the world before the tribulation if they are watching, and they scoff.  There is nothing in this passage that would lead me to believe these people are going through the great tribulation period.

Hi Butero,

The passage you cited comes after Christ had already mentioned that the sign of the Son of man appearing will be immediately after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29), which also comes after the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15).

What we see in the parables that follow are clues to help us understand the gathering of the elect (rapture).

Cheers

[Guest Butero]

I am aware of the sequence, but I believe Jesus was going back and clarifying conditions that would exist at the time of the rapture.  In other words, he goes through events that will take place, and then takes a step back, sort of like the way Genesis begins with general information about God creating man, and then goes into greater detail about the creation in the next chapter.  I read what Marilyn said, and I still believe this is speaking of the rapture.  Those who are watching for the Lord's return won't be taken by surprise.  After all, we are watching because we believe the Lord could return any day.  It is those who are not watching and that don't really believe that will be caught off guard, and in many cases, be left behind. 

 

When it comes to Bible prophecy, there will always be areas of disagreement, and the rapture is one of those controversial doctrines.  Some believe the Bible doesn't say anything that would indicate this event will occur, and others believe it is a fact.  I believe there will be a rapture, and that it is Biblical, but if it never happens and we all wind up going through the tribulation, it still won't shake my faith.  I will just have to admit I was wrong and deal with events as they are happening.  If I am right, all the better. 

[Marilyn C]

I am glad you believe in the rapture bro, Butero. Hope to see you as we gather together.

 

One day I may do a thread on what the purpose is, as we can go round & round the same old arguments for pre, mid & post till every one is weary.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I am aware of the sequence, but I believe Jesus was going back and clarifying conditions that would exist at the time of the rapture. In other words, he goes through events that will take place, and then takes a step back, sort of like the way Genesis begins with general information about God creating man, and then goes into greater detail about the creation in the next chapter. I read what Marilyn said, and I still believe this is speaking of the rapture. Those who are watching for the Lord's return won't be taken by surprise. After all, we are watching because we believe the Lord could return any day. It is those who are not watching and that don't really believe that will be caught off guard, and in many cases, be left behind.

Hi Butero,

I believe you are correct about this passage being the rapture. Many claim that only Paul taught about the rapture, but that's just not the case. Paul taught this mystery to the Gentiles, but it was none other than Christ, Himself, that had already taught this truth to His disciples.

John 14:1-3

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

His disciples later asked Him about the sign of His coming.

Matthew 24:3

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

So Christ used the rest of chapter 24 AND the entire next chapter (25) to answer this question. The (sign) of the Son of man appears immediately after the tribulation, which occurs after the abomination of desolation. Many will tell you that Matthew 24 is about the second coming, but it's the rapture (sign of His coming). The second coming is not mentioned until Matt. 25:31-46, when He returns to judge the nations (sheep & goats), which also answers the last part of the disciples question about the sign of the end of the age. So there are two different events.

Verse (31) is key in both chapters.

Matt. 24:31=Rapture

Matt. 25:31=Second Coming

All of the parables in between contain clues for understanding the gathering of His elect (rapture), and I do not believe every believer will be ready. Why would Christ repeatedly warn us to be ready, if we are all going to be raptured anyway? I mean, what's the point?

 

When it comes to Bible prophecy, there will always be areas of disagreement, and the rapture is one of those controversial doctrines. Some believe the Bible doesn't say anything that would indicate this event will occur, and others believe it is a fact. I believe there will be a rapture, and that it is Biblical, but if it never happens and we all wind up going through the tribulation, it still won't shake my faith. I will just have to admit I was wrong and deal with events as they are happening. If I am right, all the better.

The reason the rapture is so confusing and controversial is because most Christians don't know that there will be three rewards for believers. It's funny in a way. Some believe they will escape via the rapture; some think they will be martyred; and then some believers think they will be protected until the second coming.

But the question is, which of these scenarios is correct?

 

 

Answer: (all of the above)

Cheers