Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Sir,

 

I just spent the last few hours going through a detailed study of the first 2 Chapters of Hosea and I have some serious issues with your "Pigeon Holing" of Hos 2:14 with Revelation 12:14.

 

That is, this....

 

(Hosea 2:14-15) "Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.  {15} And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt."

 

And....

 

(Revelation 12:14) "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

 

 

These are not speaking to the same event, As Evidenced By:

 

 

The Elephant in The Room:  Leading up to these passages, Hosea is speaking and warning the Northern "Idolatrous" Kingdom. (Circa 750 BC)

 

1. Hosea: "I will allure her".  Revelation: not alluring; "given 2 wings of a great eagle".

 

2. Hosea: "Speak comfortably with her".  Revelation:  No Speaking.

 

3. Revelation gives a length of time: "a time, and times, and half a time".  Hosea:  No Time.

 

4.  Hosea: Given Vineyards.  Revelation:  Where's the Vineyards?

 

5. Hosea: She's Singing.  Revelation: Can you show her Singing?

 

6.  Hosea:  Valley of "Achor"---- meaning "Trouble".  It was called this as a consequence of the "Trouble" which the sin of Achan caused Israel (SEE: Jos 7:24,26.).  This is a Valley near Jerhico.... in the West Bank and is 258 meters below sea level.  But Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:16)..... tells them to flee to the mountains.

 

7.  Revelation: The Serpent.  Hosea: No Serpent

 

** You also have only roughly "Half" of "The Woman" (Northern Kingdom) being addressed in these passages, so the entire motif is quite moot.

 

 

Moreover,

 

(Hosea 2:16) "And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali."

 

They shall call him Husband (Ishi) and no more Baali (BAAL).  Because BAAL was what they were attributing their prosperity to (Idol worship) in the previous 1.5 Chapters.

 

 

And Furthermore...

 

(Hosea 2:18) "And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely."

 

 

"In that day"...what is this speaking to by ALL the tenets of the Passage?  THE MILLENNIUM (SEE: Isaiah 11:6, 65:25)

 

 

This technique you're employing of taking a single word---- "Wilderness" in this case, then finding another passage with the same word and Carte Blanch assigning then conflating a connection with said passage, apparently without sound exegesis, is quite troublesome and dangerous.  

This is the second time now because you also did it with a Phrase "cut off" in your previous comparison of Romans 11:22 with Zechariah 13.8, which I also showed in detail was erroneous.

 

 

We all make mistakes, I am not immune (just ask my wife  ).... I strongly suggest to be more careful in the future. 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Taking a little pause in my study of Hosea....which is AWESOME (Thanks for the Push    )

 

And wanted to touch on a couple of things we brushed against...here are the Phrases that speak to the "great tribulation":

 

1. The Time of Jacob's Trouble. Jer 30:7

2. Jehovah's Strange Work. Isa 28:21

3. Jehovah's Strange Act. Isa 28:21

4. The Day of Israel's Calamity. Deut 32:35. Oba 12-14

5. The Indignation. Isa 26.20, Dan 11:36

6. The Overflowing Scourge. Isa 28:15, 18

7. Day of Vengeance. Isa 34:8, 35:4, 61:2

8. The Year of Recompense. Isa 34:8

9. The Time of trouble. Dan 12:1, Zeph 1:15

10. The Day of Wrath. Zeph 1:15

11. The Day of Distress. Zeph 1:15

12. The Day of Wasteness. Zeph 1:15

13. The Day of Desolation. Zeph 1:15

14. The Day of Darkness. Zeph 1:15, Amos 5:28,20; Joel 2:2

15. The Day of Gloominess. Zeph 1:15, Joel 2:2

16. The Day of Clouds. Zeph 1:15, Joel 2:2

17. The Day of Thick Darkness. Zeph 1:15, Joel 2:2

18. The Day of Alarm. Zeph 1:16

19. The Day of the LORD. 1 Thess 5:2

20. The Wrath of GOD. Rev 15:1, 7; 14:10, 16:1

21. The Hour of Trial.  Rev 3:10

22. The Great Day of the Wrath of the Lamb. Rev 6: 16-17

23. The Wrath to Come. 1 Thess 1:10

24. The Wrath. 1 Thess 5:9, Rev 11:18

25. The Great Tribulation. Matt 24:21, Rev 2:22, 7:14

26. The Hour of Judgement. Rev 14:7

27. On the Lord's Day.  Rev 1:10

28. Time Of Affliction.  Jer 15:11

29. Their Affliction. Hos 5:15

 

 

The Remnant:

 

(Jeremiah 15:11) "The LORD said, Verily it shall be well with thy remnant; verily I will cause the enemy to entreat thee well in the time of evil and in the time of affliction."

 

(Isaiah 10:20-22) "¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.  {21} The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.  {22} For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness."

 

(Joel 2:32) "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

 

(Micah 2:12) " I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

 

Which speaks to the Second Coming, here...

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

 

And I love this; The ac will have power over many nations of the Entire World;  EXCEPT...

 

(Daniel 11:41) "He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon."

These are Ancient Names for Jordan.  The Jews will Petition HIM to Return from Edom------Bozra (Curiously, translated: "A Sheepfold"   )------Petra Today:

 

We've all seen it, Indiana Jones:

 

     

 

 

**  Pics above courtesy of Dr. Chuck Missler.

 

There's only a 10 by 10 foot entrance "Door" into this "Mountainous" Area, it's peppered with numerous caves in the sides of cliffs.  It can hold an estimated 1.5 Million People.

 

And I would like to touch on this a little closer....

 

(Jeremiah 15:11) "The LORD said, Verily it shall be well with thy remnant; verily I will cause the enemy to entreat thee well in the time of evil and in the time of affliction."

 

Edom, Moab, Ammonites -----Present Day Jordanians, are/were Traditional "Enemies" of the Jews.

 

 

(2 Peter 1:19) "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

 

This is an Absolute Profound Statement from Peter, who witnessed many things regarding Christ; including, but not limited to.... the Transfiguration: who is saying, " We have a MORE SURE WORD of PROPHECY"!

 

How can you have or be "More Sure" than a Direct Eye Witness?  .......Scripture, The WORD of GOD!

 

(Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

 

HE outlined it for us to Discover!!

 

Praise The LORD!!! 

[S.T. Ranger]

In response to the list provided:

 

 

1. "a secret coming of Jesus Christ for the Church before the Tribulation."

 

This is actually a really bad argument offered by many post-trib believers because a "secret coming" is not in view to begin with. What is in view is the fact that when the Antichrist is revealed, there will be two things which make the Rapture something not understood by unbelievers: first, the deception of Antichrist, and secondly and more important is that God will cause the unbelievers to have great delusion. Thus, it is not a matter of the Rapture being secret, but a matter of unbelievers not understanding what has happened, and buying into whatever explanation/s Antichrist will offer.

 

 

2. "An invisible coming of Christ for the Church."

 

Like unto the first argument, the unbelieving world will not be privy to the Rapture. Understand that the Rapture is first and foremost a resurrection. Secondly, that resurrection is into glorified bodies, which will have access to both the physical as well as the spiritual realm, because we are made at that time suitable for entrance to Heaven itself. That those not raptured will not be able to witness the Rapture is not something we should think unreasonable.

 

 

3. "A two part second Advent."

 

This too is a false argument. The Rapture is not equated to, or said to occur at the time of the Lord's Return. It is a separate event in which the Church is caught up, rather than the Return in which Christ returns to earth. His Return is well documented in Revelation 19, and we see that no-one will fail to know of His return. The enemies of God will be physically destroyed, and just as we see prophesied in Ezekiel 39, we know they are physically destroyed because the fowls of the air are called to feast on their carcasses. This is called the Supper of the Great God. Following this, as shown in Matthew 25, the Lord will send out His Angels to gather and to separate the believing from the unbelieving survivors. In the Rapture, Christ personally collects every single member of the Body, beginning with the dead in Christ, then we which remain (are still alive).

 

The Rapture is one event, and the Second Advent is one event, and we can see the distinguishing differences between these two events easily.

 

 

4. "A Scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His Church, versus His coming with His Church."

 

I am at a bit of a disadvantage in that I am limited as a new member, but we see Christ coming with His saints in Revelation 19. Furthermore, when He returns, we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which cannot be reconciled to Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture.

Obviously different events which have to be distinguished.

[Enoch2021]

In response to the list provided:

 

 

1. "a secret coming of Jesus Christ for the Church before the Tribulation."

 

This is actually a really bad argument offered by many post-trib believers because a "secret coming" is not in view to begin with. What is in view is the fact that when the Antichrist is revealed, there will be two things which make the Rapture something not understood by unbelievers: first, the deception of Antichrist, and secondly and more important is that God will cause the unbelievers to have great delusion. Thus, it is not a matter of the Rapture being secret, but a matter of unbelievers not understanding what has happened, and buying into whatever explanation/s Antichrist will offer.

 

 

2. "An invisible coming of Christ for the Church."

 

Like unto the first argument, the unbelieving world will not be privy to the Rapture. Understand that the Rapture is first and foremost a resurrection. Secondly, that resurrection is into glorified bodies, which will have access to both the physical as well as the spiritual realm, because we are made at that time suitable for entrance to Heaven itself. That those not raptured will not be able to witness the Rapture is not something we should think unreasonable.

 

 

3. "A two part second Advent."

 

This too is a false argument. The Rapture is not equated to, or said to occur at the time of the Lord's Return. It is a separate event in which the Church is caught up, rather than the Return in which Christ returns to earth. His Return is well documented in Revelation 19, and we see that no-one will fail to know of His return. The enemies of God will be physically destroyed, and just as we see prophesied in Ezekiel 39, we know they are physically destroyed because the fowls of the air are called to feast on their carcasses. This is called the Supper of the Great God. Following this, as shown in Matthew 25, the Lord will send out His Angels to gather and to separate the believing from the unbelieving survivors. In the Rapture, Christ personally collects every single member of the Body, beginning with the dead in Christ, then we which remain (are still alive).

 

The Rapture is one event, and the Second Advent is one event, and we can see the distinguishing differences between these two events easily.

 

 

4. "A Scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His Church, versus His coming with His Church."

 

I am at a bit of a disadvantage in that I am limited as a new member, but we see Christ coming with His saints in Revelation 19. Furthermore, when He returns, we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which cannot be reconciled to Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture.

Obviously different events which have to be distinguished.

 

 

 

==================================================================================================================================

 

Overall not bad, a couple issues....

 

 

What is in view is the fact that when the Antichrist is revealed, there will be two things which make the Rapture something not understood by unbelievers

 

 

The "Rapture" must be before the ac is revealed.  And "the revealing" is when he makes the covenant with the many....that is the Beginning of Daniel's 70th Week.

 

The sequence is here...

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" 

 

1.  The "he" is the Holy Spirit given to "The Church" (Forever).  And "he" isn't going anywhere without "The Church".

 

2.  "he" is taken out of the way; "Rapture".

 

3.  "And Then" shall that Wicked (ac) be revealed.

 

 

Moreover....

 

If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Covenant with the Many or the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the below Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post.

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

 

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Either the above passages are True/Correct...... OR..... Mid/Post Great-Trib Rapture is True.  They are clearly Mutually Exclusive....BOTH can't be TRUE.

 

 

ERGO...The Rapture MUST BE prior to Daniel's 70th Week.

 

The enemies of God will be physically destroyed, and just as we see prophesied in Ezekiel 39, we know they are physically destroyed because the fowls of the air are called to feast on their carcasses. This is called the Supper of the Great God.

 

 

Ezekiel 38-39 is the GOG/Magog Invasion, it has Absolutely Nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week or Revelation.  (Caveat: Gog/Magog is referenced in Revelation 20:8 but this is after the Millennium).  And this is not a Reference to Ezekiel 38-39 anyway. 

 

 

Furthermore, when He returns, we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment

 

 

Please show where post Revelation 19:16....?  It's not there.

 

Most Scholars "speculate" that the Sheep and Goat Judgement occurs in the Interim between Christ's Return and the Start of the Millennium.  Within the 75 days (1290/1330) post "great tribulation"....

 

(Daniel 12:11-12) "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  {12} Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." 

 

 

And remember, "The Sheep" don't know they're Sheep!

[S.T. Ranger]

I am at a disadvantage in that I cannot quote you, an issue that I thought would be resolved after five posts, but apparently there is more to it than that, lol. So I will simply answer in descending order.

 

1A. You say the "Rapture must take place before the Antichrist is revealed," and then give the Rapture and the taking out of the way of the Holy Spirit as the reasoning behind this. I would suggest to you that while the Church is taken out of the world, the Holy is not, He is taken "out of the way." That is a significant point we must remember when we look at this passage. Secondly, we would have to apply or impose spiritual understanding upon natural men for my point to be refuted. Third, when the Church is Raptured, while the Holy Spirit, Who is omnipresent, is not taken out of the world, the influence of the Holy Spirit through the Church ceases to be a restraining factor in this world. The Church is Raptured, and the impact we have had in this world ceases, which is coupled with both spiritual blindness to begin with, the deception of the Antichrist who has now free of the restraint once imposed, and...the great delusion God sends upon those that "received not the love of the truth." In chapter one of 2 Thessalonians we see a similar statement regarding those who "know not God and obey not the Gospel."

 

Again, not sure how this refutes my statement. You have the Holy Spirit being Raptured with the Church as though He is not still in the world, but confined to the Body of Christ.

 

1B. You say that it is at this time that Antichrist makes the covenant, and I would agree with that, because the covenant Antichrist effects is broken at the mid-point of the Tribulation, where I believe we see the true unveiling of Antichrist for who he really is. Many people will  be deceived by him, and I think he will answer a lot of questions for people, one of them possibly what happened in the Rapture. Again, we see the great delusion given men at the time of the Tribulation, which is discontinued only for those that are saved during this period.

 

And it's driving me nuts not to be able to quote, lol.

 

 

2. "Moreover..."

 

The problem you have here is that "Christians that have read Daniel" will not be able to mark their calendars, because when the Rapture takes place and the Tribulation begins...there are no Christians in the world. That's the point. You will not find the Church in the events described in Revelation, that is, within the Tribulation. All members of the Body, alive and dead...are caught up after having been resurrected bodily. We can see this illustrated in the Rapture of the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11.

 

Now, those who turn to Christ during the Tribulation will very much be able to track the time. It is my view that the Two Witnesses minister in the first half, are killed, resurrected, and caught up to Heaven, and then Antichrist's reign of terror truly begins. Therefore passages stating the timing of the Day of the Lord remain intact, because we still do not know when this will take place. Furthermore, those given strong delusion will still not understand that they are going through the Tribulation, because they will have embraced Antichrist. Your argument again imposes something that Paul states dogmatically is not impossible in a number of passages, which is they will not be spiritually discerning of spiritual events.

 

And you are forgetting that Paul wrote that this day will not come upon us as a thief in the night.

 

So this point too does not negate a Pre-trib Rapture. You say "Either the above passages are true/correct" and I can stop you right there...they are. The problem is not that they are not correct, the problem is making those in view...Christians. This can only be said of the quote from 2 Peter, where it is not the Tribulation in view, but that described in Revelation 20 and 21, the passing away of this current universe. We have to place each passage in it's proper context, and Matthew 24, for example, is not a Rapture passage, it deals with the Lord's Return after the Tribulation ends.

 

 

3. Some prophecy has more than one application, such as prophecy in Daniel applying both to Antiochus Epiphanes as well as the final and ultimate Antichrist.

 

If you notice in Ezekiel 39 you will see that after this destruction of the enemies of God, there are given two time frames concerning what takes place after they are destroyed: seven months, and seven years. While some will separate Old Testament Prophecy from New Testament Prophecy, I would remind you that Christ Himself spoke of a future fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation. His warning is, "When you see these things happen...flee!" It is not a coincidence that the Supper of the Great God resembles what is described in Ezekiel 39, nor is it a coincidence Ezekiel then proceeds to speak about the Kingdom.

 

The same process takes place in regards to the events described in Revelation. The Tribulation takes place, and at the end, the Lord Returns. Apart from those immediately destroyed (surrounding Jerusalem), what then takes place is the separation of the believing from the unbelieving. The unbelieving are destroyed as well (go into eternal judgment), and the believing enter into that Kingdom. For seven years, Ezekial (39) tells us, the inhabitants of the land will use the cast off weapons of the enemies of God...for firewood. The first mention of a Forensic Crew is made here, lol, in that those that pass through the land will mark the bones of the fallen, and there will be those with the specific job of burying the bones that are missed in the seven months spent in cleansing the land of their corpses.

 

Where was this fulfilled in ancient times?

 

Your own caveat illustrates the similarity more than it illustrates unrelated prophecy.

 

 

4. I am not sure what you are asking in regards to Revelation 19:16.

 

The order of events are thus: Christ returns, the enemies of God are destroyed, Satan is bound, and the Kingdom established, given a length of one thousand years. At this time, one of the greatest misconceptions about the Rapture is perpetrated in Revelation 20, where Post-Trib believers reason that because this is called the "First Resurrection," this must mean that the Rapture takes place here.

 

This is wrong for a number of reasons.

 

First, if we look at the Greek we will see that "First" or protos, is not secluded to a definition of "first in series," meaning, it is not always used to denote order of succession. The same word is used of priests we know were not the first priests, of estates we know were not the first estates, and commandments we know were not the first commandments.

 

Secondly, only those that died during the Tribulation are resurrected at this time. We know this because they did not receive the mark of the beast. While non-mention cannot establish doctrine, we can say that since the Word of God is specific as to who is raised at this time, we can place trust in the fact that these are the ones raised.

 

Third, we know this is not the "first" resurrection...even in Revelation. The Two Witnesses are raised prior to this event, which makes the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs the second resurrection.

 

Fourth, and last for now, not one thing in the order of events in Revelation 19-20 denies a Pre-Trib Rapture. But it does fit with what we read elsewhere, such as the Sheep and Goat Judgment which takes place after the Lord's return.

 

 

5. I would agree with the "speculation of "most scholars," lol, because the Sheep and Goat Judgment fits nicely in that 75 day period. Furthermore, it also reconciles how Satan can be bound a thousand years yet still make an appearance at the end of the thousand years. Because he is bound at the end of the Tribulation, which Scripture makes clear is bound to a 1260 day period, the 75 day period in which the establishment of the Kingdom takes place leaves a 75 day period for Satan to be active in at the end of the thousand year Kingdom, meaning, the two thousand year periods (Satan's binding and the Kingdom itself) do not begin at the same time.

 

Remember, the Lord taught often concerning the Kingdom, and the bottom line is that the "bad" is separated from the "good" (i.e., a catch of fish as in the parable of the dragnet), because nothing that defiles can enter into that Kingdom. We also know that no-one who is not a born again believer can enter into the Kingdom, which is another example of multiple applications to a singular doctrinal statement. No-one enters into the Spiritual Kingdom apart from being born again, and it is equally true that no-one will enter into the physical Kingdom either. So we have the Lord's return, and then there is the need for the judgment which separates the unbelieving from the believing during the process of establishing the Kingdom.

 

6. Of course sheep know they are sheep, lol.

 

 

John 10:14

 

King James Version

 

14 I am the Good Shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

 

 

Hopefully the restrictions concerning quoting will not continue, which will make it a little easier to respond.

 

Thanks for the response.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

 

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Again, not sure how this refutes my statement. You have the Holy Spirit being Raptured with the Church as though He is not still in the world, but confined to the Body of Christ.

 

 

Well the Holy Spirit "In-Dwells" The Church FOREVER.  Is the Church Taken out of the way or is it "Raptured"?  The Church is Raptured with the "In-Dwelling" Holy Spirit; Ergo...the Holy Spirit goes with the Church.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

 

How can the Holy Spirit be with "The Church" FOREVER and not be taken with "The Church"?

 

 

You say that it is at this time that Antichrist makes the covenant, and I would agree with that, because the covenant Antichrist effects is broken at the mid-point of the Tribulation

 

 

Not @ the "mid-point" of Tribulation.  There is no "Tribulation" only the "Great Tribulation" and it begins with the Abomination of Desolation and last for 3.5 years.  Just because the last half of Daniel's 70th Week is the "Great Tribulation" doesn't Ipso Facto make the first half (3.5 years) "Tribulation", especially when that week starts out of some kind of Peace Treaty. Whoever started the "Tribulation" nonsense has really complicated precision and "Gummed up the works" with an already complex subject.

 

 

The problem you have here is that "Christians that have read Daniel" will not be able to mark their calendars, because when the Rapture takes place and the Tribulation begins...there are no Christians in the world.

 

 

It's not my problem, for I believe and so stated that the Rapture must take place before Daniel's 70th Week. AND:

 

1. We already discussed the "Tribulation" issue.

 

2. I caution you here, there is nothing that states that Daniel's 70th Week "Immediately" follows The Rapture.....you are Presuming.

 

 

It is my view that the Two Witnesses minister in the first half, are killed, resurrected, and caught up to Heaven, and then Antichrist's reign of terror truly begins.

 

 

Can't be. And I'm assuming you're still considering the "First Half" something that it's not.  As mentioned, The "Great Tribulation" begins in the Midst of the Week with the Abomination of Desolation and lasts for...

"Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

The Two Witnesses are here...

 

(Revelation 11:3) "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

 

They come on the seen @ the same time as The Abomination of Desolation....in the midst of Daniel's 70th Week.

 

 

Your argument again imposes something that Paul states dogmatically is not impossible in a number of passages, which is they will not be spiritually discerning of spiritual events.

 

 

I haven't the first clue what you're talking about.

 

 

And you are forgetting that Paul wrote that this day will not come upon us as a thief in the night.

 

 

I didn't forget it...and again @ a loss on how this impacts my argument.

 

 

So this point too does not negate a Pre-trib Rapture. You say "Either the above passages are true/correct" and I can stop you right there...they are. The problem is not that they are not correct, the problem is making those in view...Christians.

 

 

We seem to have gone done some dark alley.  Of course, the Christians will be gone...That's my point.  If they weren't gone, by the "Covenant with the Many" (Beginning of Daniel's 70th Week) then it would render the passages and Doctrine False.  Because the Christians Know what's coming 7 years from that point.

 

 

I am not sure what you are asking in regards to Revelation 19:16.

 

 

Well you said: "Furthermore, when He returns, we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment". For your statement to be correct, you have to show WHERE this judgement is since Christ Returns in Rev 19:16.

 

 

The order of events are thus: Christ returns, the enemies of God are destroyed, Satan is bound, and the Kingdom established, given a length of one thousand years. At this time, one of the greatest misconceptions about the Rapture is perpetrated in Revelation 20, where Post-Trib believers reason that because this is called the "First Resurrection," this must mean that the Rapture takes place here.

 

This is wrong for a number of reasons.

 

 

Yep.

 

 

Some prophecy has more than one application, such as prophecy in Daniel applying both to Antiochus Epiphanes as well as the final and ultimate Antichrist.

 

 

Well yea, but that doesn't give you Carte Blanche warrant to associate Ezekiel 38-39 with Revelation or Daniel.

 

 

If you notice in Ezekiel 39 you will see that after this destruction of the enemies of God, there are given two time frames concerning what takes place after they are destroyed: seven months, and seven years.

 

 

So?

 

 

While some will separate Old Testament Prophecy from New Testament Prophecy, I would remind you that Christ Himself spoke of a future fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation.

 

 

Why would "some" do that?  It's Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).  There's over 800 allusions to the OT in The Book of Revelation.

 

 

His warning is, "When you see these things happen...flee!"  It is not a coincidence that the Supper of the Great God resembles what is described in Ezekiel 39, nor is it a coincidence Ezekiel then proceeds to speak about the Kingdom.

 

 

When you see what things happen...Flee? .... 

 

(Matthew 24:15-17) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:"

 

Daniel not Ezekiel.

 

 

It is not a coincidence that the Supper of the Great God resembles what is described in Ezekiel 39, nor is it a coincidence Ezekiel then proceeds to speak about the Kingdom.

 

 

Well lets take a look...

 

(Revelation 19:17-18) "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;  {18} That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

 

(Ezekiel 39:17-20) "¶ And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.  {18} Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.  {19} And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.  {20} Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD."

 

So:

 

1. Revelation: an Angel cried with a Loud Voice.  Ezekiel: Ezekiel (son of man) Speaks.

 

2. Revelation: The Angel spoke to ALL the fowls of the air.  Ezekiel: Spoke to every "Feathered" fowl AND every Beast of the Field.

 

3. Revelation: Eat Flesh.  Ezekiel: Eat Flesh AND Drink Blood.

 

4. Revelation: Eat Flesh of:  kings, captains, mighty men, horses and of them that sit on them,  men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    Ezekiel: Eat Flesh of the mighty.  Drink blood of: princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

 

These are clearly not the same event.

 

Moreover, The Purpose of the Gog/Magog Invasion is for "Booty" and Spoil"; Whereas, Revelation/"great Tribulation" is to push the Jews to the Wall and have the Jewish Remnant Petition The LORD to Return...

 

(Ezekiel 38:9-12) "Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.  {10} Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:  {11} And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,  {12} To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land."

 

(Ezekiel 38:13) "Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?"

 

 

Purpose of the "great tribulation"......(Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

And can you please show anywhere in Ezekiel 38-39, These....

 

THE LAMB or The LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH??      Then: satan/ ac/ False Prophet/ Mark of the beast/ Martyrs/ 2 Witnesses.....Preaching, Killed, then Resurrected....rising to Heaven with everyone watching /Mystery Babylon/ Babylon Proper...being destroyed/ Tribulation Saints/ 144,00 Sealed/ 7 Churches/  7 Seals/ 7 Trumpets/ 7 Bowls/ Locusts....tormenting men 5 Months/ Signs in sun, moon, stars, heaven/ Bottomless Pit/ Michael Casting satan out of Heaven with 1/3 of his angels/ 24 Elders/ 4 Living Creatures with six wings about them/ The Four Horseman/ Wormwood/ The 4 Angels loosed from the great river Euphrates/ Army of two hundred thousand thousand/ The Temple of GOD/ The Ark of HIS Testament/ Blasphemy against GOD/ Abomination of Desolation/ Deadly Head Wound...then Healed/ Image of the Beast that came to Life/ Mount Sion/ Flying Angel Preaching the Gospel/ Angels with Sharp Sickles/ Vine and Grapes/ Great Winepress/ Blood 1600 Furlongs up to Horses Bridles/ Grievous Sores upon Men/ sea as blood of a dead man and ALL sea-life Died/ Sun Scorching men with Fire/ Angel Standing on the Sun/ men gnawing their tongues in pain...No Repentance/ Frogs out of the mouth of dragon, people with the mark....cast into the Lake of Fire/ Marriage Supper/ Wife....arrayed in fine linen, white and clean/ White Horse/ Vesture dipped in Blood....written on the side: KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

"Of course sheep know they are sheep, lol." ----

 

Ahhh, no they don't....

 

(Matthew 25:33-40) " And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.  {34}  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  {35}  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:  {36}  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 

 

{37}  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  {38}  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  {39}  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  {40}  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

 

See that ( ? )....they're speaking volumes if you care to listen.  Perhaps it's time to stop the "lol-ing" and get to the "pay attention to detail-ing"

 

 

 

"Hopefully the restrictions concerning quoting will not continue, which will make it a little easier to respond." ----

 

To Reply, Hit Quote (Bottom Right of the Post).  In the Work Box, Scroll up to what you wish to reply to.  Copy it, then paste it in the work Area.  Highlight it again and Hit the ( " ) Icon just below "My Media" on the editing menu.  You should be good to go.

[Guest]

I took in a kitty rescue today. The woman who brought the cat to me started talking about politics and said she thinks it's the end times with all that's happening now.

 

Could be the tribulation. One never knows.

Description of the great tribulation. According to Jesus:

 

Matt 24:21,22 For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

 

I would be curious to know, what in current politics, would lead her to believe that we are in or on the verge of, the worst time in the history or the future of mankind.

[wingnut-]

 

Taking a little pause in my study of Hosea....which is AWESOME (Thanks for the Push    )

 

 

Hello again Enoch, I am so glad to hear it is a blessing for you.  Sorry for delaying you as we continue our discussion, I can be pesky.  I would like to thank you as well, for jogging my old brain as to how to quote again, I have that issue when I've been away from the boards for a length of time.  I want to start by saying I understand your response from earlier, and I apologize for the sarcastic comment.  I do want to begin right from that discussion concerning the New Jerusalem being the bride, which is what precipitated my comment "so much for chronology."

 

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 

You have not refuted this even once, much less three times, please address this passage, particularly the underlined areas.  The symbol you have of who makes up the bride, is incorrect.  Your theory that Revelation is chronological falls apart as well, but the verse says what it says.  John ties the bride to New Jerusalem symbolically right here, your argument is with scripture, not with me.

 

A modern way to say this same thing is:

 

Little Tommy says to little Billy, "Come here, let me show you the best present I ever got."    And he showed little Billy his brand new set of Lego's.

 

You are trying to argue that the best present Tommy ever got was Lincoln Logs.  I cannot accept your scenario on the basis of scripture, or (to borrow your words to me) a "Violation of Logic."  If you can reconcile the above passage from Revelation with your scenario, please do so.

 

=====================================================================================

 

Now let's get back to Revelation 12 and the identity of the 3 characters using the information established earlier in the discussion.

 

Let's break this down verse by verse and establish facts.

 

Revelation 12:¹³ When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

 

1. The dragon pursues the woman.

 

Revelation 12:⁴ The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

 

2.  The woman escapes to the wilderness.

3.  The woman will be taken care of for 3 1/2 years.

4.  The woman is out of Satan's reach for the duration of the time given.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁵ Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.

 

5.  Satan goes to great lengths to get to the woman.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁶ But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

 

6. Despite Satan's extreme effort to get the woman, he cannot.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁷ Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

7.  Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan becomes very angry.

8.  Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan wages war against the rest of her offspring.

9.  The woman's offspring keep God's commands.

10. The woman's offspring hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

Two different groups, one that Satan cannot get at (see facts 4-8), and one that he can. (fact 8)

 

You have three major contradictions in the scenario you paint.

a)  You insist on saying that the woman in this passage represents all three parts spoken of by Zechariah.

b)  You insist on saying that the offspring represents the "remnant" spoken of by the prophets.

c)  You insist on saying that the "remnant" spoken of by the prophets is part of the woman at the same time.

 

Established facts 3-10 make up the contradiction in a, b, and c.

 

We'll start with the contradiction of combining the woman and the offspring.  Two groups, one that Satan cannot get at, one that he can.  Complete opposite ends of the spectrum, so let's look at some comparable analogies.

 

Group A                                Group B

 

protected          vs                unprotected

married             vs                   single

dead                 vs                    alive

 

In the same 3 1/2 year span, can one be both at the same time?  NO.  The identity of your characters is contrary to scripture.  I cannot accept this on the basis of scripture, and a "Violation of Logic."

 

Going back now to contradiction a) the woman in Revelation being all three parts spoken of by Zechariah.

 

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

Beginning with the red letters we establish 2 facts.

 

1.  Two thirds of the nation of Israel will be "cut off and die."

2.  One third of the nation of Israel will be left.

 

I offered you the biblical illustration Paul wrote in Romans 11:17-22 of what the symbolic meaning of "cut off" is.  I was puzzled by your response so perhaps I just haven't been explaining myself clearly.  At any rate, let's look at it again.

 

Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

You mentioned earlier that you are married, so perhaps you own a home as well.  Maybe you have some shrubs or bushes that you like to keep in a certain shape.  You may use a powered hedge trimmer or metallic scissors of some kind to cut off branches and keep it in shape.  Now come spring, or following a series of heavy rain, you occasionally get a few branches that shoot out a good 4 inches further than everything else.  You don't get out the powered hedge trimmer, you just reach down and break off these few branches with your hands.

 

Whether you break them off or cut them off, they will die apart from the root.  Zechariah wrote, "two parts therein shall be cut off and die".  He is saying that two thirds of them are not His children, they are not part of the body.  The third part are the remnant, the same remnant that Paul links to the remnant Isaiah spoke of.

 

Romans 9:²⁷ Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,

    only the remnant will be saved.

²⁸ For the Lord will carry out

    his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

 

Only the remnant will be saved, correct?  As it is written.  Also please take note of what verse 28 says, carried out with speed and finality.

Bottom line, the two thirds is neither the woman, or her offspring.  Two thirds is in big trouble.

 

Unless you have some scriptural basis to support the claim that a group assigned to be "broken or cut off" are walking with the Lord enough to garnish either:

 

a) His protection from Satan- while being cut off from Him................  A requirement based on the facts established of the woman in Revelation, and the facts established in the Zechariah passage concerning the "two parts".

 

b)  Are said to be keeping His commandments and holding fast to their testimony about Jesus- while being cut off from Him.............. A requirement based on the facts established of the offspring in Revelation, and the facts established in the Zechariah passage concerning the "two parts".

 

For these reasons I cannot accept your inclusion of the "two parts" as being depicted in any character mentioned in the Revelation 12 passage.

 

Now let's look at the Zechariah passage again:

 

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

The Lord will bring the third part through the fire, and calls them "my people".  He does not call the two parts "my people".  He does not because they are not.

 

The identity of the woman in Revelation 12 is the remnant, there is no other scriptural explanation.  Now tell me who are the offspring?  Who keeps the commandments and holds fast their testimony in Jesus?   The and, as well as what follows are very important to pay attention to.  This disqualifies all non-believers, regardless of ethnicity, from the beginning of the 3 1/2 years to the end as fitting the facts established regarding the offspring.

 

So the identity of the offspring cannot be either:

 

a)  The remnant spoken of by the prophets.

b)  Any non-believer, regardless of ethnicity.

 

Who does that leave?

 

So, to answer your question:

 

"The problem I see with the Offspring of the Jews being Jewish...".   Still have a Problem?

 

Yes.  I see a great big gaping hole of a problem.

 

=======================================================================================

 

If you want to understand how the story unfolds, you have to identify the characters properly.  Everything that follows is subject to this.

 

I can even pinpoint precisely why your scenario does not line up....... You use symbolism to arrive at your conclusion for the identity of the woman, and then apply that literally to the identity of the offspring.  The offspring are symbolic as well, and not literally the offspring of the woman, an error that convinces you they must be Jewish, and they are not.  This is why your scenario spins out of control.  Only the remnant will be saved!!!!

 

In a discussion you had earlier in this thread with someone else, the individual gave you the answer scripturally.  There is one seed, there is one bride, there is one body, there is one husband.... Do you see the pattern here?

 

Your image of eternity goes something like this, we have the bride (the church only), the husband (Jesus), and then this other group that wasn't invited to the marriage supper (Jewish people).  So what does that make the Jews, the mistress?  The real elephant in the room?

 

When a detective is solving a crime, compiling a list of suspects is at the top of the list of "things to do."  Eyewitness testimony comes first, also high on the list is collecting evidence.  Establishing a case requires all of these things and more, so for those of us who live in relative safety; respect and be thankful for minds that work like mine, a lot of those minds provide that relative safety.  No, I am not nor have I ever been in law enforcement, but it would have been a very good fit for me.

 

If you want to solve a mystery you need to establish facts, this comes from the eyewitness testimony, the evidence collected, elimination of suspects, etc.  The more facts you can establish, the stronger your case.  Eyewitness testimony coming from multiple witnesses is never exactly the same, we all see things through our own lens, so you will get different details from different perspectives. There are little clues and trails to follow, you dismiss this tried and true methodology with comments like:

 

Be careful with "Artistic Licence" and 2nd, 3rd, 4th order extrapolations of effects----- then conclusions drawn from those extrapolations.

 

I am extremely careful when it comes to scripture sir, your repeated implications that I need to do more studying, or that I in some way lack the knowledge and understanding of the material, or the respect for it that the Word of God should be given when handled, are not conclusions drawn from fact, but by supposition on your part.  I ask that you please refrain from these type statements in the future, I am not the topic, you don't know me.  If there is no agreement to stick to the material, there is no need in continuing.  I am referring to these type of statements:

 

This technique you're employing of taking a single word---- "Wilderness" in this case, then finding another passage with the same word and Carte Blanch assigning then conflating a connection with said passage, apparently without sound exegesis, is quite troublesome and dangerous.  

This is the second time now because you also did it with a Phrase "cut off" in your previous comparison of Romans 11:22 with Zechariah 13.8, which I also showed in detail was erroneous.

 

  Your entire quote is erroneous on all counts.  You will not convince me that this is not meant to be insulting, I am familiar with this technique you are employing here, it is called--------- I don't like what you have to say, so you're stupid.  I can think of nothing more personal as far as an attack goes, it appears you know how I read and handle scripture down to techniques, and because I post a verse or two from pertinent material, you draw the wild and inaccurate conclusion that I am "pigeon-holing" one verse, or one word in said verse.  You know very little about me, outside of the fact that I don't agree Revelation is chronological, and we do not agree on how the end times will unfold.

 

It doesn't matter to me if I'm the smartest or the dumbest guy in the room, what matters is that I've arrived at the truth.  If your only interest is to convince everyone you are always right about everything, I'm not convinced.  If you want to convince me, address the issues I've outlined above with sound scriptural and logical possibilities.

 

I want to give you an example of why your critique of small details in regards to the chronology issue holds no weight.  Compare these two passages from scripture.

 

Romans 9:²⁷ Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

²⁸ For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

 

Isaiah 10:²² For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

²³ For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

 

According to your criteria in regards to the material I offered for comparison from Revelation, we should conclude that these two passages here are incomparable, because they do not say exactly the same thing.  Look at that, Paul says "a remnant shall be saved." and Isaiah said, " a remnant of them shall return."  It can't possibly be linked together, they are not exact!  Wrong.

 

We know that Paul is referencing the Isaiah passage here, so your argument for exactness is duly noted and dismissed as unsound reasoning.  A little more consistency is required, when dealing with symbolism one mustn't blur the line between symbolic and literal, or in how we assess the validity of clues.  Scripture itself will reveal whether or not the picture we have painted is correct by either confirming or refuting our conclusions of what are facts.

 

========================================================================================

 

It is impossible to be "A Christian".....before Pentecost.  Can't explain it any simpler.  Any attempt to refute, is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).

 

 

Impossible you say?

 

Mark 10:27  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

 

For God?

 

Luke 1:37  For with God nothing shall be impossible.

 

Really? 

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

⁴ In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

⁵ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

I think not.

 

I shall await your response to my inquiries, God bless.

[ncn]

 I would like to thank you as well, for jogging my old brain 

 

 

"Old" being the operative word , thought I'd get that in there for you wing. 

[S.T. Ranger]

 

 

 

 

==============================================================================================================================

 

 

 

Again, not sure how this refutes my statement. You have the Holy Spirit being Raptured with the Church as though He is not still in the world, but confined to the Body of Christ.

 

Well the Holy Spirit "In-Dwells" The Church FOREVER.

Again, you are still making this to mean that the Holy Spirit Himself is taken out of the world with the Church, when the Holy Spirit is Omnipresent. It is an impossibility that God should cease to be in the world.

 

Is the Church Taken out of the way or is it "Raptured"?

The Restrainer is taken out of the way. Let's stick to what the text actually states:

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

 

In view is not the Rapture, but the Tribulation. They are concerned that the Day of the Lord has begun. Paul writes to assure them that it cannot be in process because he has already told them that there must be a falling away first, and the man of sin, the Antichrist be revealed. Their concerns about having missed the Rapture are unfounded, because if the Rapture had taken place...then the falling away would have already taken place as well, and the man of sin revealed.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is what the man of sin will do. And we see that in Revelation:

Revelation 13:4-8 King James Version (KJV)

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now the question is...can Antichrist do these things while the Two Witnesses are alive? The obvious answer is no. The Two Witnesses also minister for forty two months, which establishes the first half of the Tribulation.

We know by the teaching of Daniel, Christ, and Paul...that Antichrist will stand in the Holy Place...

[size=5}Matthew 24:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

...and we know that he cannot do that as long as the Two Witnesses are alive...

Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

...which indicates that the two forty-two month periods are not concurrent.

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

So let's recap: Paul writes to them to assure them that the Day of the Lord has not already begun, hence the Rapture cannot possibly have taken place. There must be a falling away, and the man of sin revealed, which cannot happen until the Restrainer, not the Church...is taken out of the way.

Not out of the world.

The Church being caught up is not the point Paul makes, but the falling away, and the man of sin being restrained ceasing.

 

The Church is Raptured with the "In-Dwelling" Holy Spirit; Ergo...the Holy Spirit goes with the Church.

No-one is arguing that the indwelling of God is not eternal, that is simply a basic truth taught in Scripture.

But where your argument is in error is to think that because indwelt believers are caught up...this means the Holy Spirit ceases to be in the World, as though God is confined to the Body of Christ.

Of course the Holy Spirit "goes with the Church," but the Holy Spirit is not confined to the Church. And again, note the Restrainer is taken out of the way, not the world. He will still be ministering to people as He has always done from the beginning of man's existence.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

Again, no argument concerning the eternality of the indwelling of God in the believer. That never changes. He was "with the disciples at the time of this teaching, but Christ taught that when He was come, He (the Comforter, Holy Spirit) would be in them.

 

How can the Holy Spirit be with "The Church" FOREVER and not be taken with "The Church"?

 

How can the Holy Spirit be in members of the Body of Christ and still perform His convicting ministry to the world?

He is omnipresent. He is God.

Continued...

Edited December 21, 2014 by S.T. Ranger