Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

[Woman_At_The_Well]

My head is spinning

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

The truth according to whom?

Shalom, RustyAngeL.

You're not going to like ... or accept ... the answer, so why get into it? To whom would you assign the truth as YOU know it?

[RustyAngeL]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, RustyAngeL.

You're not going to like ... or accept ... the answer, so why get into it? To whom would you assign the truth as YOU know it?

I know the truth, His name is Jesus, and His Word is without flaw.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

I know the truth, His name is Jesus, and His Word is without flaw.

Shalom, RustyAngeL.

Good! Then you've answered your own question.

[PatrolMan]

On 8/21/2016 at 10:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, everyone!

I figured, why not? So, here goes:

I believe in the "rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, as it is often called; however, I do NOT believe that anyone goes to "Heaven." We will go THROUGH the "heavens," the "skies," on our way to the Middle East. We'll meet the Master in the air, and from that time on we'll always be with the Master. 

Even if you don't accept my definition of "heaven," Yeshua` just CAME from heaven! Why would He go back? To keep His own out of the Great Tribulation? To keep us out of trials? If that's what you believe, then you really DO believe in "fire insurance!" But, we were never promised a life of ease without persecution. If we don't ever have to face trials and persecution and martyrdom, then God MAY have to apologize to those of the first century who suffered! Or, at least WE should!

Why would He go back? To remove us from God's Wrath? Why would that be necessary? God's been quite capable up to this point in history of keeping His children from experiencing His Wrath (as long as His Wrath wasn't aimed AT them, of course).

He had Noach build a 3-story box (that's what "ark" means) to keep air-breathing life alive while the flood waters were on the earth.

He was able to protect Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-Nego THROUGH the fire without so much as the smell of smoke on their clothes!

He had the children of Israel in the land of Goshen within the borders of Egypt put blood on the doorposts and the lintel of their doors to mark those within the house as belonging to God when the messenger of death passed over and spared their firstborn sons while all the rest of Egypt suffered loss.

Daniel was surrounded by hungry lions all night long without a scratch on him in the morning!

No, God doesn't need to have us out of the way when He pours out His Wrath; His aim is quite good! He could hit everyone around you and leave you standing!

So, what does this passage in 1 Thessalonians mean? Let's look at it again:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

It's a resurrection passage, to be sure. "Jesus" and the "Lord himself" are Yeshua` the Messiah. We should know that much.

God will resurrect those who sleep in Yeshua` and bring them with Yeshua` as He returns. They're not coming from anywhere else but the grave, the urn, or the sea and the wonderful memory of our great God ADONAI. The resurrection is an act of CREATION! He will do for us what He did for our ultimate ancestor, Adam; He will form our bodies of the dust of the ground, the ashes, or whatever materials at hand He may choose to use, and breathe into our nostrils the breath of life, and we shall be air-breathers (souls) once again. At least, that's what He WOULD do if He wasn't going to do more! 

According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:35-57, we read,

1 Corinthians 15:35-57
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = "bodies belonging-to-above-the-sky"), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = "bodies belonging-to-above-the-ground"): but the glory of the celestial (Greek: toon epouranioon) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial (Greek: toon epigeioon) is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "a-body air-breathing"); it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "a-body wind-blasting"). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: eis psucheen zoosan = "into an-air-breather living")" (Gen. 2:7); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: eis pneuma zoo-opoioun = "into a-wind life-giving").
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon = "wind-blasting"), but that which is natural (Greek: psuchikon = "air-breathing"); and afterward that which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon = "wind-blasting").
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (Greek: ek gees choikos = "out-of earth soil-like": the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ho kurios ex ouranou = "the Lord out-of [the]-sky").
48 As is the earthy (Greek: ho choikos = "the soil-like [one]"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: hoi choikoi = "the soil-like [ones]"): and as is the heavenly (Greek: ho epouranios = "the [one]-belonging-to-above-the-sky"), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoi epouranioi = "the [ones]-belonging-to-above-the-sky").
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (Greek: sarx kai haima = "muscle and blood") cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (Greek: allageesometha = "we-shall-be-made-different"),
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (Greek: allageesometha = "we-shall-be-made-different").
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isa. 25:8)
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

So, those who are resurrected are resurrected incorruptible - that is, they shall no longer decay - and immortal - that is, they shall no longer die. We are never told we shall go to "Heaven" because that's not our destiny! Our destiny is the NEW EARTH, but that comes AFTER the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom, after the Great White Throne Judgment, and after the global Fire, the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, and after Yeshua` the Messiah has turned over the Kingdom (the WORLD Kingdom) to His Father.

Oh, and just as a point of reference, I started this yesterday, so I wrote "Shabbat shalom," even though it is no longer the Shabbat.

With all that you said and quoted in this very long post, I would recommend that you do some more study, you are way off base. Have a nice day.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, PatrolMan said:

With all that you said and quoted in this very long post, I would recommend that you do some more study, you are way off base. Have a nice day.

Shalom, PatrolMan.

Without more info, I would recommend the same of you ... with the same results!

[Retrobyter]

On 8/22/2016 at 0:39 AM, Ezra said:

Right.  The Gaza Strip would be a great destination right now, with all the bombing going on there!

This is one of the wackiest theories to appear in a long time.

Shalom, Ezra.

I just wanted to go back and touch on this for a moment. Don't you understand that issues like that of the Gaza Strip and that of the West Bank are PRECISELY why Yeshua` comes back?! He will HANDLE these issues! They are SQUATTERS in HIS LAND! And, where else could you be safer than with the Lord in BATTLE?!

[Keras]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I just wanted to go back and touch on this for a moment. Don't you understand that issues like that of the Gaza Strip and that of the West Bank are PRECISELY why Yeshua` comes back?! He will HANDLE these issues! They are SQUATTERS in HIS LAND! And, where else could you be safer than with the Lord in BATTLE?!

The Lord has the solution to the Middle East problem. He intends to wipe out the lot of them. 

The Lord will uproot the Evil Neighbours who have encroached onto the Holy Land:

 

Jeremiah 12:14 These are the Words of the Lord about those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that I allotted to Israel as their inheritance. I shall uproot them from their holdings. Judah too, I shall uproot

Jeremiah 9:25-26 The Lord says: The time is coming when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh. All those who live in the desert regions are uncircumcised in their hearts.

Philistines – Palestinians:

Ezekiel 25:15-17 Because the Philistines seek to destroy Judah with malice in their hearts, keeping up their ancient hostility, then I will take mighty vengeance.

Amos 1:6-8 For crime after crime of Philistia, they will have no reprieve, I shall send fire until the last of the Philistines is dead.

Zephaniah 2:4-7 At mid day Gaza will be left in ruins, I will destroy it. Gaza will be left with no inhabitants.

Tyre and Sidon – Lebanon:

Luke 10:14 Tyre and Sidon will be judged.

Amos 1:9-10 For the sins of Tyre, I will not hold back My wrath. Fire will consume them.

Zechariah 9:3-5...I will remove your possessions and your cities will be destroyed by fire

Damascus – Syria:

Jeremiah 49:23-27 News comes of a disaster, they try to escape, but fire will kill them.

Amos 1:3-5 For their crimes, there will be no reprieve, I will send fire upon them.

Isaiah 17:1-14 Damascus will cease to be a city, forever desolate. Such is their fate.

Ammon and Moab – Jordan:

Ezekiel 25:1-11 Because the Ammonites exulted over the Land of Israel with spiteful contempt, I will cut you off and bring you to ruin.

Jeremiah 49:1-5 Ammon will become a desolate mound, its towns burnt to ashes.

Ezekiel 21:28-32 My sword will flash like lightning when I judge Ammon. You will be fuel for the fire and be remembered no more.

Amos 1:13-15 For crime after crime of the Ammonites, there will be no reprieve. Fire will destroy Amman with a whirlwind on that Day. Their King will go into exile.

Edom, Kedar,Teman and Hazor – Arabia:

Obadiah 1:2 I shall make Edom the least of all nations, an object of utter contempt.

Isaiah 21:13-17 You who live in Arabia, meet the fugitives, [from Jordan] then within a year all of your glory will come to an end, only a few will be left.

Ezekiel 30:5 All of the Arab peoples will fall by the sword.

Egypt, Cush, Put and Libya – North Africa:

Ezekiel 30:2-9 A Day is near, a Day of terror and reckoning for the nations. All the Egyptians, Libyans and peoples of allied lands will fall by the sword.

Zephaniah 2:12 You Cushites will be slain by the sword of the Lord.

Isaiah 19:1-5 & 17 The Lord comes and a cloud descends on Egypt. they will become confused and fight each other. The very name of Israel will strike terror in them.

Assyria – Iraq, now possibly alsoTurkey or Germany:

Isaiah 31:8-9 Assyria will fall, but not by a man’s sword, a sword that no mortal wields will devour them. They will panic at the fire of the Lord and all their armed forces will be killed or be captured and put to labour.  Ref: REB. Verses abridged.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 8/1/2017 at 4:32 PM, Keras said:

The Lord has the solution to the Middle East problem. He intends to wipe out the lot of them. 

The Lord will uproot the Evil Neighbours who have encroached onto the Holy Land:

 

Jeremiah 12:14 These are the Words of the Lord about those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that I allotted to Israel as their inheritance. I shall uproot them from their holdings. Judah too, I shall uproot

Jeremiah 9:25-26 The Lord says: The time is coming when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh. All those who live in the desert regions are uncircumcised in their hearts.

Philistines – Palestinians:

Ezekiel 25:15-17 Because the Philistines seek to destroy Judah with malice in their hearts, keeping up their ancient hostility, then I will take mighty vengeance.

Amos 1:6-8 For crime after crime of Philistia, they will have no reprieve, I shall send fire until the last of the Philistines is dead.

Zephaniah 2:4-7 At mid day Gaza will be left in ruins, I will destroy it. Gaza will be left with no inhabitants.

Tyre and Sidon – Lebanon:

Luke 10:14 Tyre and Sidon will be judged.

Amos 1:9-10 For the sins of Tyre, I will not hold back My wrath. Fire will consume them.

Zechariah 9:3-5...I will remove your possessions and your cities will be destroyed by fire

Damascus – Syria:

Jeremiah 49:23-27 News comes of a disaster, they try to escape, but fire will kill them.

Amos 1:3-5 For their crimes, there will be no reprieve, I will send fire upon them.

Isaiah 17:1-14 Damascus will cease to be a city, forever desolate. Such is their fate.

Ammon and Moab – Jordan:

Ezekiel 25:1-11 Because the Ammonites exulted over the Land of Israel with spiteful contempt, I will cut you off and bring you to ruin.

Jeremiah 49:1-5 Ammon will become a desolate mound, its towns burnt to ashes.

Ezekiel 21:28-32 My sword will flash like lightning when I judge Ammon. You will be fuel for the fire and be remembered no more.

Amos 1:13-15 For crime after crime of the Ammonites, there will be no reprieve. Fire will destroy Amman with a whirlwind on that Day. Their King will go into exile.

Edom, Kedar,Teman and Hazor – Arabia:

Obadiah 1:2 I shall make Edom the least of all nations, an object of utter contempt.

Isaiah 21:13-17 You who live in Arabia, meet the fugitives, [from Jordan] then within a year all of your glory will come to an end, only a few will be left.

Ezekiel 30:5 All of the Arab peoples will fall by the sword.

Egypt, Cush, Put and Libya – North Africa:

Ezekiel 30:2-9 A Day is near, a Day of terror and reckoning for the nations. All the Egyptians, Libyans and peoples of allied lands will fall by the sword.

Zephaniah 2:12 You Cushites will be slain by the sword of the Lord.

Isaiah 19:1-5 & 17 The Lord comes and a cloud descends on Egypt. they will become confused and fight each other. The very name of Israel will strike terror in them.

Assyria – Iraq, now possibly alsoTurkey or Germany:

Isaiah 31:8-9 Assyria will fall, but not by a man’s sword, a sword that no mortal wields will devour them. They will panic at the fire of the Lord and all their armed forces will be killed or be captured and put to labour.  Ref: REB. Verses abridged.

Shalom, Keras.

Yes, He DOES intend "to wipe out the lot of them. " And, remember:

John 5:22-23
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
KJV

Therefore, it is YESHUA`S job to wipe them out! That's what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order:  (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward  (1) they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh  (2) the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Remember, too, that Paul was teaching this in light of the RESURRECTION.

We also read this ...

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (of the Messiah); that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
KJV

Some think this occurs in "Heaven," but that's not right. First of all, we have read,

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

[He reigns FOR EVER, and of His Kingdom there shall be NO END! It doesn't say anything here about the 1000 years or the "millennium," which is simply Latin for "1000 years," coming from ("mille" = "a thousand," as in the French-originated card game, Mille Bornes) + ("annum" = "year," from which we get our word "annual.")]

Now, the throne of Solomon was lavish, but the actual, physical throne of David was said (by whom?) to be a "crude, backless bench on which he would sit to judge matters in Israel." (source? I think I read this in one of my Bible History books when studying at Bible college, but I cannot locate the source...yet!)

Why wouldn't Yeshua` take great pride in judging Israel and the world from His ancestor's literal, physical throne? After all, one of the jobs of Israel's kings was to act as the "Supreme Court Judge!" And, we are also told, that we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of the MESSIAH (for that is what "Christ" means)! That's not off in some "Heaven" somewhere! That's RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH in the Land of Israel!

 

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Therefore, it is YESHUA`S job to wipe them out!

Just as John prophesied: Matthew 3:12, and Luke 19:27, on the great Day of vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17

Are you ready for that Day?