What do you think about Boundaries?

[GoldenEagle]

@Mary98 Ah I see so you believe that all issues are a result of sin. You mentioned "character traits inextricably enmeshed with sin". Interesting. I don't believe that all issues are result of sin. This reminds me of Jesus's great response to his disciples when they asked "“Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” See John 9.  

The problem becomes when people think all issues are result of sin. Many indeed are. But not all. There are chemical imbalances that people experience which they have little or no control over. People experience real abuse they have little or no control over. Why? Because the many in the church refuse to believe or allow others to have healthy boundaries. But I digress...

So you'd probably fall into the camp of 2. Evangelical Pastoral Counselors from this post and C. Nothing buttery from this post? 

Continued in next post.

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

22 hours ago, Mary98 said:

 

Hi GoldenEagle,

The reason I used the term "personality disorders" is because not everyone recognizes that what the secular world calls " personality disorders" are character traits inextricably enmeshed with sin.  We Christians tend to call these influences "unclean spirits".  Born Again believers tend to be led to deliverance to be freed of those influences unless they are brand new Born Christians.  But no, I did not state we need to avoid all people with mental disorders. There are many mental disorders which do not fall under the classification of personality disorders.   But I do think that if we have the ability to discern influences commonly associated with things like sociopathy that we ought to, indeed are instructed by scripture, to keep our distance. Because anyone who has been truly regenerate should no longer be compulsively and repetitively sinful .  Although it can sometimes be very difficult to detect these individuals because they are not always conspicuous. 

This enclosed article really describes my disposition more fully on the larger issue of "Boundaries".

God Bless.

"Boundaries"- Drawing the Wrong Line!
review by Debbie Dewart

---

Boundaries. This modern psychological "buzzword" is used by authors John Townsend and Henry Cloud to explain, diagnose, and prescribe solutions for a vast array of human sin. They are not alone. In today’s psychologized church, it is considered a "sin" to neglect the construction of personal "boundaries." But is this term really an appropriate metaphor to carry the load that psychologists assign to it?

In his interview with Lifeskills, Cloud defines "boundary" as "simply a property line." In Scripture, the term indeed is used to describe geographical property lines, but never personal "property lines." It serves geography well but mutilates the biblical concept of personal responsibility. But Cloud goes on to articulate a psychological system where "boundaries" define our personal responsibilities. Several key problems emerge.

Self-Control? The fruit of the Spirit includes self-control along with eight other qualities (Galatians 5). Psychological "boundaries" encourage taking control and assuming ownership of our own lives in a manner that conflicts with the biblical view that believers are to submit control to God, knowing that they are not their own, having been "bought with a price," the blood of Christ (1 Corinthians 6:19).

Sorting out responsibilities? The Bible does demand that we assume our proper responsibilities before God, and that we not contribute to the sins of others. Cloud, however, never makes it clear that we are responsible before God for keeping His commandments. Instead, the thrust of his writing encourages a responsibility to self. Furthermore, he never mentions the mutual, overlapping responsibilities described in scriptures such as Ezekiel 3, Matthew 18:15-20, and Galatians 6:1-5. The result is an unbiblical emphasis on the individual that obscures the unity and interdependence of the body of Christ.

Compulsion or Freedom? The "boundaries" concept encourages people to give freely rather than in response to the pressure of others. "Shoulds" and "oughts" are discarded as a hindrance to interpersonal relationships. Yet God does give commands concerning our responsibilities in the lives of others. Such commands are conveniently skipped over when discussing "boundaries." Rather than casting off "shoulds," believers need to focus on obeying biblical commands in grateful response to Christ’s work on the cross, knowing that He has set them free from the enslaving power of sin so that they can obey (Romans 6).

Need theology? The "boundaries" concept is driven by the erroneous psychological assumption that human beings are fundamentally victims due to unmet needs, rather than sinners whose ungodly desires remain unsatisfied. Such thinking destroys the responsibility that Cloud claims to promote, and it destroys the Christian’s hope. How can he change until his "needs" are met in a "safe place" with "safe people"? Cloud claims that God "wants us to grow and develop our boundaries so we won’t invite hurt again." But, the God revealed in Scripture calls His people to joyfully endure hardship, even persecution, for the eternal cause of Christ. Cloud says to forgive because "unforgiveness keeps you tied to unhealthy relationships." Scripture says to forgive because "God in Christ has forgiven you."

Perhaps . . . if "boundaries" merely encouraged believers to help others assume their rightful biblical responsibilities and not to share in the sins of those others, it would be a helpful concept. As formulated, however, it contributes to the inherent selfishness of the human heart and to the "victim" mentality of our culture, weakens the unity of Christ’s body (the church), and downplays suffering for the cause of Christ. This rampant psychoheresy needs to be exposed and confronted for the error that it is.

 

 

Here are some thoughts: 

Re: Self-Control. I do believe that we are responsible for our own feelings, thoughts, actions and words. We cannot be responsible for the feelings, thoughts, actions and words of others. I believe there's a healthy balance of self-control that should encompass our lives. That said, we are to submit to God and lean on Him for strength. Unhealthy boundaries or no boundaries at all lead to all kinds of problems. 

Re: Sorting out responsibilities. We are responsible for our own lives and sin. We cannot be responsible for the sin of others. There is a balance between personal responsibility and responsibility amongst the body. You can have one without the other but it usually leads to serious problems such as we have seen with Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips, Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahoney, and even Tullian Tchividjian (Billy Graham's grandson). This is a good article that goes further into what happens when there is lack of personal responsibility and accountability amongst church leadership. The result is typically abuse in one form or another. Or worse blaming the victim!

Re: Compulsion or Freedom? I don't think people should be pressured into feeling a certain way, talking a certain way, thinking a certain way, or acting a certain way. That is the role of Holy Spirit which many like to take in the roles of others lives.The Holy Spirit convicts of our sin and leads us to be confirmed to the mind of Christ. Particularly people like to tell others what to do whole hold positions of perceived power such as parents, fathers, husbands, pastors, etc.

Re: Need Theology? I completely disagree with the authors perspective on boundaries. I believe I have my own responsibilities. I don't consider myself a victim but with God's help taking responsibility for my own life. While we are called to endure hardship and take up our cross as we follow Christ this doesn't mean we simply allow others to run all over us. Notice for example when the Believers laid what they had at the Apostles feed in Acts 2 did so out of a grateful heart. Nobody was commanding anyone to sell what they had. They were meeting the needs of others. There was no compulsive giving taught. The apostles equipped those who believed in Jesus and trusted God to lead each person as the Holy Spirit saw fit. 

God bless,

GE

[JohnD]

What do you think about Boundaries?

I'm on the fence...

 

[GoldenEagle]

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 11:49 PM, JohnD said:

What do you think about Boundaries?

I'm on the fence...

 

Lol well that's... interesting  
God bless,
GE

[simplejeff]

On 11/12/2016 at 5:30 PM, GoldenEagle said:

There are chemical imbalances that people experience which they have little or no control over. People experience real abuse they have little or no control over. Why? Because the many in the church refuse to believe or allow others to have healthy boundaries. But I digress...

"Biological" VS "chemical imbalances" ......   vibrant living foods VS toxins, chemicals and dead foods (and man made toxins)

People have to do their own research, sometimes for several years, usually a few months at least,

and they can have perfect control over the imbalances. 

As you said though "many in the church refuse to believe or allow" ~~  the truth (about boundaries, chemicals, food, professionals, etc) so that many times people cannot find out (get help / 'balance')  where they thought they could find out....  often they face opposition instead ! (even here / on forums)

[Ezra]

On 11/13/2016 at 10:49 PM, JohnD said:

What do you think about Boundaries?

I'm on the fence...

As they say, good fences make good neighbors, and good fence-sitters make good equivocators.