False righteousness in the last days

[Ezra]

31 minutes ago, Davida said:

Some things go back a little far to be attributed because of Parkinson's. Either way , sift like I said. Some just freak automatically if you say a word against Graham.

We need to be careful not to idolize any preacher. We should give credit where credit is due. But Billy Graham's compromise is well documented, and I am sure it led to much confusion when he involved Catholic clergy in his crusades.

 

[markdohle]

2 hours ago, Jaydog1976 said:

First off I am not sure what Billy Graham meant by his statement even though it is a bit odd and raises some red flags. At face value however he is indicating a very ecumenical viewpoint that allows for other beliefs to be accepted as a way to heaven.

Salvation mardohle only comes through Jesus Christ and no others. John 14:6, "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(NIV)" and Matthew 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.(NIV)". So to answer you quote it only through Christ Acts 16:31, 'They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household.(NIV)". There is only one way it can happen and it isn't through anything else.

Now I am not sure what you mean by narrow interpretation but in this case we can only take a narrow viewpoint on it. Why? Because this is how God said it would be. We aren't able to widen that interpretation of salvation because it is pretty clear, concise and simple. 

Jesus Christ is God, so how could there be salvation apart from Him?  The path towards God is narrow for we are to let go of sin, to love and to allow the Holy Spirit to guide and lead us.  The Holy Spirit blows where he wills and none of us can put a limit on that.   Jesus himself said that those who seek shall find.  I think that points out that a seeking heart will find truth.  In the Last Judgment scene in Matthew people were judged on how they loved and helped others.  Why?  Well because Jesus identifies with the suffering so in ignoring those in need, we ignore Christ. This brings out I believe Jesus’ intimacy with all of us, especially the suffering and outcast.

"Born Agains" really are not together as a group when it comes to the question about salvation.  The OSAS belief is not accepted by all and both sides use scriptures to back up their stance on this issue.  I do believe that Billy Graham has matured enough in the faith that when he makes a statement which can be misunderstood easily, I believe he is merely saying that God does what he wills, give grace to whom he wills, and saves whom he wills. 

To speak of love is not 'fluff', but a hard truth.  In the first Epistle of John he speaks that to hate is to be outside of the light, so what those who actually do love; or they outside of the light if they are from another faith.  What about "Born Agains", who hate, are they still in the light? 

The OSAS approach states that the way is actually broad, for once saved in reality one can do what they want, so how is that a narrow way? 

We are told not to judge for a reason, yet we continue to seek out some simple way to point out who is dammed and who is not. 

I do believe that some here like to think that after death there is big surprise for most of us. What is it?  Well SURPRISE, sorry son or daughter but you got it wrong, you believed too much in works, or not enough in works, or had the wrong idea about Jesus, so off to hell you go.  So the paradox is that in hell are people who love God and others, while in heaven there are “Born Agains” who love no one, but because of one ‘work’ the prayer of salvation they can be in heaven even  if they do not love God or others.  I find this both amusing and horrifying at the same time.

Love God, Love People, keep it simple allow God to sort it out, and I believe his sorting is not what we think or believe, quotes aside.

Of course I am Catholic, so what can you expect, right ;-).

 

[Guest BacKaran]

I disagree, mark

The OSAS approach states that the way is actually broad, for once saved in reality one can do what they want, so how is that a narrow way? 

*****"""***************

I'll use myself as an example, I am not boasting...

As a Roman Catholic, I lived my life as my parents did. Live like the devil all week as Fridays confession day, hooray! Saved until next week.

No life soul changes were ever made in my life when I was baptized, made communion and confirmed in the rcc. I was a sinner who just needed the church to save me and change never happened in the rcc. Don't tell me I was in a bad church or not properly taught, this is the main problem of all rccs.

However, my life has had fantastic changes since leaving the rcc. I was born again after searching deeply for Jesus and the change was instant.

Once saved always saved is not a license to freely sin as some believe. The fruits of a regenerated soul is proof one has totally been regenerated by Christ.

I no longer smoke, swear,bar hop, drink alcohol, watch violent tv or movies, I no longer gamble... Why?

Because I am compelled by the love of Christ to obey God my Father with the discernment and wisdom from the Holy Spirit.

It horrifies me how I lived before being born again. How arrogant that I dare return to my pattern of sinning  week after week after week with no soul changes in the rcc because I believed that confession was just a weekly ritual without meaning. 

Those who don't believe in once saved always saved are still lost as they are not relying fully on Jesus righteousness but OSAS has never been about sinning wantonly.

My old life, I didn't care if I sinned and if I did I wasn't  remorseful.

 My new life, in Christ, i care if I sin with instant remorse.

I pray for everyone to turn to Christ and His Word because when it's all said and life is over, it's just about you in front of Christ.

 

 

 

[kwikphilly]

My Beloved Sister Davida & all my Brothers & Sisters

    Just to let you know,I was never a"fan" of Billy Graham and there are several evangelists that  I question ,as far as their motivation (heart) but without anything to substantiate my concerns or questions I prefer to remain silent and not give my opinions on anything I've not seen or heard with my very own eyes & ears,that is my personal preference & they way I feel best represents WHO I am in Christ.....I share these things with all of you because I cannot know each mans heart as God does.....perhaps there is someone reading that has a less than GODLY agenda,slanderous,unkind,tale bearing,gossip.....if that is any of you then what I say is a loving reminder of WHO we are in Christ,if not,then simply "carry on" as each of you are  led to do(hopefully that is always with Holy Spirit orchestrating your WORDS)........

   What we say here is viewed by hundreds ,if not thousands......how does it look to the UNBELIEVER who does not have a clue what is false doctrine or true Gospel?What the difference is between a Spirit Filled Believer & one who deceitfully proclaims they are a christian.......to then catholics,protestans & even JW & mormons are all just Christians....... I would imagine it sounds like Christians bad mouthing Christians just as it often sounds tome......those are my feelings,if anyone else shares those ,great,if not.....follow your own conscience                              With love-in Christ,Kwik

   Also,understand that I do many things in the Body of Christ besides WCF,I am quite active in Ministry and have many discussions such as these with the Brethren,they are real issues that should & need be addressed.....only I feel there is better places to do that than on a public forum outside of the Body,we have password protected forums here where we can all let our hair down & not have to consider the appearances of evil,that is my 2 cents    Thanks for listening  Glory to God!

[markdohle]

13 hours ago, BacKaran said:

I disagree, mark

The OSAS approach states that the way is actually broad, for once saved in reality one can do what they want, so how is that a narrow way? 

*****"""***************

I'll use myself as an example, I am not boasting...

As a Roman Catholic, I lived my life as my parents did. Live like the devil all week as Fridays confession day, hooray! Saved until next week.

No life soul changes were ever made in my life when I was baptized, made communion and confirmed in the rcc. I was a sinner who just needed the church to save me and change never happened in the rcc. Don't tell me I was in a bad church or not properly taught, this is the main problem of all rccs.

However, my life has had fantastic changes since leaving the rcc. I was born again after searching deeply for Jesus and the change was instant.

Once saved always saved is not a license to freely sin as some believe. The fruits of a regenerated soul is proof one has totally been regenerated by Christ.

I no longer smoke, swear,bar hop, drink alcohol, watch violent tv or movies, I no longer gamble... Why?

Because I am compelled by the love of Christ to obey God my Father with the discernment and wisdom from the Holy Spirit.

It horrifies me how I lived before being born again. How arrogant that I dare return to my pattern of sinning  week after week after week with no soul changes in the rcc because I believed that confession was just a weekly ritual without meaning. 

Those who don't believe in once saved always saved are still lost as they are not relying fully on Jesus righteousness but OSAS has never been about sinning wantonly.

My old life, I didn't care if I sinned and if I did I wasn't  remorseful.

 My new life, in Christ, i care if I sin with instant remorse.

I pray for everyone to turn to Christ and His Word because when it's all said and life is over, it's just about you in front of Christ.

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing my friend.  I am glad that you have found Jesus Christ and have a deep trusting relationship with him.  However, being Catholic I have found that as well.  There is no  scriptural quote that states that those who don't believe in OSAS are lost, I know the New Testament and find it nowhere.  I also know there are quotes that seem to state that, then others from St. Paul that state otherwise..... however it does say that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.  What you are saying is that people who don't have a certain understanding of salvation, OSAS even though they seek the Lord and love the Lord will at death find themselves in Hell.....I find that bizarre to say the least.  Jesus came to save what was lost, yet you seem to want to come up ith all kinds of hoops for people to jump through before they are actually saved.

We are saved by God's grace, his mercy, his love and those who seek are promised to find, you seem to be saying that those who seek but don't agree with you are lost for eternity, in a place of torture even though they love and God and seek his face. 

I am fine with you not agreeing with me, but telling me that I am going to hell is something you have no right to do, or to judge, because you are incapable of it.  That is why the Lord told us not to judge.  I am not judging you, for I know that you are a loving woman who loves the Lord, I believe you, but many Catholics, who were once non-catholic can say the same thing.  Jesus is our Lord, he is our savior, it is by his grace and mercy we are saved. 
 

[Guest BacKaran]

First Mark, I'd like to say again we agree to disagree.

Second, my point of my last response to you was about your comment that osas people can live like they want and that's not true.

My point being as a new creation in God, one has instant remorse when sin comes up vs those who live in an unregenerate life and live life still in sin unremorseful.

I didn't say anything about hell, I said they were lost and i can discern that from their actions and words as the Lord said we should.

The ultimate example of Christ's love for us sinners is the thief on the cross. While He was dying He still was showing His love for all, even to a thief on the cross

Hell is a horrible place and I would not judge a persons heart to hell, that's not my job.

But if they are not acting like a new creation and obeying God, I can tell, again, by their actions and words that they are still lost.

No one need to agree with me at all, one needs to be in agreement with Gods word, trusty and obey God, not man.

There are various examples of a born again soul being firmly assured of their salvation forever in the NT. You can look them up.

One that I like is.. You are saved to the utter most.....

Good discussion and I'm glad you're here.?

 

[markdohle]

11 minutes ago, BacKaran said:

First Mark, I'd like to say again we agree to disagree.

Second, my point of my last response to you was about your comment that osas people can live like they want and that's not true.

My point being as a new creation in God, one has instant remorse when sin comes up vs those who live in an unregenerate life and live life still in sin unremorseful.

I didn't say anything about hell, I said they were lost and i can discern that from their actions and words as the Lord said we should.

The ultimate example of Christ's love for us sinners is the thief on the cross. While He was dying He still was showing His love for all, even to a thief on the cross

Hell is a horrible place and I would not judge a persons heart to hell, that's not my job.

But if they are not acting like a new creation and obeying God, I can tell, again, by their actions and words that they are still lost.

No one need to agree with me at all, one needs to be in agreement with Gods word, trusty and obey God, not man.

There are various examples of a born again soul being firmly assured of their salvation forever in the NT. You can look them up.

One that I like is.. You are saved to the utter most.....

Good discussion and I'm glad you're here.?

 

Language is the problem my friend.  I do believe that Christ Jesus loves us all in a manner that if we experienced it we would die of joy.  I also believe from experience that the Lord will not easily let go of someone who wanders, he brings them back, he seeks out the lost sheep, leaving the 99.  I agree we are saved totally by Christ Jesus and we are called to a deep loving relationship with him.  I do believe however that people can turn their backs on God and refuse to return.  In my prayer I hope and pray for the salvation of men and woman, for just as Jesus loves me and has shown mercy to me, so he does with all, if only they would respond.  Only God knows the heart I agree my friend. 

I am glad you are here, and you are a sister in Christ to me, even if you might think I am not ;-).  I still think about your post when you spent the day in prayer, it was so pure, childlike and joyful.  I found it healing and helpful in my own walk with Christ Jesus.

Thank you for your patience with me.

Peace
mark