QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Daniel 11:36]

To the OP

This biblical event is the most controversial topic among professing Christianity today

Most know about the event, but argue over the timing

The purpose of this transforming event is to immortalize the Lord's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living at the time .... all will be made immortal at the same time

Heaven is neither up or down, but in a different dimension that earth dwellers cannot see, so it is present, but not visible .... and it is a condition where the Lord dwells

Most understand the event as a changing event which will transform us from the mortal to the immortal, whether we are dead or alive. at the Lord's call [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

Here is what you are looking as evidence of the immortal "church" dwelling in "heaven" during the Lord's coming judgment upon an unbelieving world and also the proof that this event will take place just before [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17 [those that have come away from the tribulation]; 11:2; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those already on thrones] 

 

 

  

[Salty]

16 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Salty

The "Saints" will not be given in marriage, but are as the angels of God.

We cannot throw the Saints of the first resurrection with the remnants of Israel, and left over gentiles into one basket.  Only those who served the Lamb of God are in the first resurrection, and will be raised to spirit like Christ was.  The saints will rule with Christ, over Israel and the gentiles during the millennium.

Are you heeding the Pre-trib Rapture and Dispensationalist doctrines from John Nelson Darby? Darby is who proposed that the Church reigns with Jesus from Heaven while Israel is made a new nation on earth, in the flesh. That idea is not Biblical.

Christ's Church is to reign ON the earth (Rev.5:10; Dan.7:18; Ps.37:9), and Rev.20:9 shows you that with where the "camp of the saints" is located for the Millennium.

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

That's the feet of those of Christ's Church which the wicked "synagogue of Satan" will come to bow to in worship of Christ. Those are not of true Israel, they are false Jews, servants of the devil, literally, like the "tares" of Matt.13, and crept in unawares of Jude 1. In other words, they are the evilest of evil men for this present world. So how is it Jesus is going to make them come bow at the feet of His elect in that future time, if what you are saying is true?

 

16 hours ago, Sister said:

 Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

Daniel 7:27   And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Those verses declare those of the 1st resurrection unto Life not being subject to the "second death" of being cast into the future "lake of fire". It says nothing against the John 5:28-29 verses where Jesus showed on the day of His 2nd coming all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth, the just to the resurrection of life, and the wicked to the resurrection of damnation.

You still have not disproven the John 5:28-29 about the wicked being raised also on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. It still stands in the way of the doctrine of man you're holding onto.

 

16 hours ago, Sister said:

 Luke 20:34   And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

  Luke 20:35   But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

  Luke 20:36   Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

Only the saints of the resurrection cannot die anymore, nor are given to marriage.

That is very true, only those of the 1st resurrection (Christ's Church) will not be subject to the "second death" during the 1,000 years.

But it does not prevent the wicked from being raised to their "resurrection of damnation" which John 5:28-29 and Dan.12:2 reveals will occur at Christ's 2nd coming. They will be in resurrection bodies and still... be subject to the "second death" of the "lake of fire", and that's the difference you are denying.

 

[Salty]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

To the OP

This biblical event is the most controversial topic among professing Christianity today

Most know about the event, but argue over the timing

The purpose of this transforming event is to immortalize the Lord's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living at the time .... all will be made immortal at the same time

Heaven is neither up or down, but in a different dimension that earth dwellers cannot see, so it is present, but not visible .... and it is a condition where the Lord dwells

Most understand the event as a changing event which will transform us from the mortal to the immortal, whether we are dead or alive. at the Lord's call [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

Here is what you are looking as evidence of the immortal "church" dwelling in "heaven" during the Lord's coming judgment upon an unbelieving world and also the proof that this event will take place just before [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17 [those that have come away from the tribulation]; 11:2; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those already on thrones]

The only reason there is controversy over it is because of so many that heed men's doctrines instead of sticking to what God's Word actually declares as written.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

 

[simplejeff]

.

20 minutes ago, Salty said:

The only reason there is controversy over it is because of so many that heed men's doctrines instead of sticking to what God's Word actually declares as written.

Amein.

Also this: (is required, not optional, but rarely experienced) :  "...Then opened HE (Y'SHUA) their (HIS disciples) understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,..."

[Daniel 11:36]

"The only reason there is controversy over it is because of so many that heed men's doctrines instead of sticking to what God's Word actually declares as written"

 

You have the end of the tribulation in view above .... after the days of the tribulation [Revelation 1:7]

The gatherings at the time will be of the mortal survivors of the tribulation .... of Israel [Matthew 24:29-31], of the nations of the Gentiles [Matthew 25:31-46]

There are no resurrections to immortality of any of these and those found believing will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... as mortals [Revelation 20:1-4]

There are three resurrections of the first kind to immortality noted in Revelation's unfolding in the following order:

The Lord's early call [pre-tribulation] for today's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and the living at the time .... those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 .... those already on thrones]

The Lord's two prophets at the end of the tribulation period [Revelation 11:7-12]

Then the martyrs of those who will become believers during the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Daniel 11:36

[JohnD]

On 12/26/2016 at 9:44 PM, Ezra said:

That's only according to some who believe in a mid-tribulation Rapture.  The preponderance of evidence is for a pre-tribulation Rapture.

No, the traditional mid-trib rapture camp assumes one seven-year tribulation. As do traditional pre-trib and post trib rapture camps.

I said mid 70th week of Daniel. What's the difference? you might ask...

There are two tribulations within the seven-year 70th week of Daniel. The believer's tribulation at the hands of the world (led by Satan) for 42 months (1260 days / time times and half a time) approximately 3.5 years. And the remainder is the great tribulation by the hand of God. No believer will be in the latter tribulation because the wrath of God for the believer was poured out on Jesus on the cross.

Once one understands the 70th week of Daniel, they understand that the one rapture takes place PRE great tribulation, MID 70th week of Daniel and POST believer's tribulation.

 

 

[JohnD]

Revelation 13:5–10 (AV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Daniel 7:24–26 (AV)
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Daniel 12:7 (AV)
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 12:6 (AV)
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14–17 (AV)
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The global hatred will be off Israel for a change and on Christians.
Then when Christians are killed off or raptured the hate will return towards Israel as the great tribulation rains down on the earth.

Revelation 11:2 (AV)
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5 (AV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3 (AV)
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Matthew 24:15–22 (AV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

[JohnD]

The two 3 and 1/2 year tribulations occur in a seven year time frame but the Bible painstakingly divides them in two.

If you understand this all three eschatology camps are correct. If you don't understand this, non of them are correct.

[n2thelight]

We always talk about this 3 1/2 year trib,does one not understand that Christ said it would be cut short?

It will be cut short to 6 months,as in the time of the locust.

Just thought Id share

 

[Ezra]

1 minute ago, eileenhat said:

Jesus will come to Earth with his faithful angels.

That should be "saints and angels", not just angels.