Sabbath Issue

[BobRyan]

On 4/6/2017 at 5:38 AM, Limey_Bob said:

The true Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, the 4th commandment at Exodus 20 is rest, well Christ said: "come unto me and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28), this is the true Sababth rest, when we rest (i.e. express faith) in Christ.

you have quoted Christ's statement in Matthew 11. Is it your view that before the cross - when Christ was teaching in Matt 11 - he was ignoring the Exodus 20 and Genesis 2 Sabbath ("Made for mankind" according to Christ in Mark 2:27) and commanding His disciples to also ignore that commandment?

If so - how does that fit in with Christ's statement on God's Ten Commandments in Mark 7:6-13??

Edited April 13, 2017 by BobRyan

[Limey_Bob]

15 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

you have quoted Christ's statement in Matthew 11. Is it your view that before the cross - when Christ was teaching in Matt 11 - he was ignoring the Exodus 20 and Genesis 2 Sabbath ("Made for mankind" according to Christ in Mark 2:27) and commanding His disciples to also ignore that commandment?

If so - how does that fit in with Christ's statement on God's Ten Commandments in Mark 7:6-13??

You know what, Christ came to this earth 2,000 years ago, he is returning very soon, so we both need to focus on that and forget about Mark 7 which was made before the cross to the Jews, otherwise we will be adding your own man-made doctrines to what Christ has done on the cross, and the cross is final, nobody nor you nor I can add to it, so lets rest (Sabbath) in the cross as that is the true Sabbath. If we don't rest in the cross, then we are Sabbath breakers.

[BobRyan]

3 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

You know what, Christ came to this earth 2,000 years ago, he is returning very soon, so we both need to focus on that and forget about Mark 7 which was made before the cross to the Jews, otherwise we will be adding your own man-made doctrines to what Christ has done on the cross, and the cross is final, nobody nor you nor I can add to it, so lets rest (Sabbath) in the cross as that is the true Sabbath. If we don't rest in the cross, then we are Sabbath breakers.

Certainly it is true that being a born-again Christian, accepting Christ as our savior is above outward compliance with commands such as "Do not take God's name in vain", "Honor your parents" (As we see in Mark 7:6-13) about honoring parents. But at the same time the two concepts are not opposed to each other either. For example the New Covenant states that the Law of God is "written on the heart and mind" under the Gospel that is also called the New Covenant. So then  "Do not take God's name in vain", "Honor your parents" absolutely "in" for born again New Covenant Christians.

Paul brings this link between grace and obedience  in Romans 6 as well.

In Revelation 14:12 "the saints keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" - it is "both and" not "either or" in the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit that brings about the new birth, the writes the Law of God on the heart and mind, that enables the Christian to even express obedience in actual life (the tree that produces good fruit in Matthew 7).

Thus the reference you made to Matthew 11 is not at all in conflict with the reference to Mark 7. IT is not as if - as Christians we can affirm Matthew 11 but not Mark 7. Both texts are written after the cross - for the instruction of Christians in obedience to Christ's command in Mathew 28 to make disciples of all nations "teaching them all that I taught you".

Edited April 13, 2017 by BobRyan

[angels4u]

On 4/6/2017 at 6:38 AM, Limey_Bob said:

The true Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, the 4th commandment at Exodus 20 is rest, well Christ said: "come unto me and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28), this is the true Sababth rest, when we rest (i.e. express faith) in Christ.

 

 

Amen !

In  Jesus we rest  everyday , He is our Shabbath ..  

Oh, how I love Jesus  because He first loved us~~

 

 

[Riccardo]

So God didn't give it to man kind at creation? my bible says he did.

So you think man can change Gods laws,  for the Sabbath to be changed to Sunday it was done after Jesus death. (Outside of the NT) ratification 

Brother you are in error & as I said have to create & invent outside of clear simplistic scripture.

Even you said the Ten Commandments stand,  I can't believe you think you can change the day after Jesus death. 

The catholic church admits they changed the day.  

.  Enough said, we have both been down this path before.

 

 

 

[BobRyan]

34 minutes ago, Riccardo said:

So God didn't give it to man kind at creation? my bible says he did.

 

 

 

 

That is true - it was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 not "mankind made for the Sabbath" which is Christ speaking of the "making of both" which happened during creation week. Even Exodus 20:11 points directly back to Genesis 2:1-3 to show the origin of the Sabbath.

And Isaiah 66:23 says that "all mankind" will be keeping Sabbath for all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth.

Christ was often accused of Sabbath breaking by the legalistic Jews - and He always denied it. In fact ... He was sinless.

And in the New Testament "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

Notice how Paul goes out of his way to point to the "unit of Ten" as being included in the moral law of God that still applies to people today ... in Ephesians 6:2 we are told that the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" -- which is only true within "the unit of ten". 

What is more there is affirmation of the Ten Commandments in the statements of faith - and sermons of almost every major Christian denomination in the world.

Edited April 14, 2017 by BobRyan

[Fidei Defensor]

The Answer according to Jesus Christ and The Apostle Paul,

" And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. ²⁴ The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” ²⁵ And He *said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; ²⁶ how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” ²⁷ Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:23-27)

"At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. ² But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” ³ But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, ⁴ how he entered the house of God, and they ate the ^[b]consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? ⁵ Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? ⁶ But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. ⁷ But if you had known what this ^[d]means, ‘I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. ⁸ For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” (Matthew 12:1-8)

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— ¹⁷ things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. ¹⁸ Let no one keep ^[r]defrauding you of your prize by delighting in ^[s]self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, ¹⁹ and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God." (Colossians 2:16-19)

"One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." (Romans 14:5-6).

Here is how God spent the Sabbath, "By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. ³ Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created ^[a]and made." (Genesis 2:2-3). The point is if we are to imitate the LORD, we should do as he did, rest on whatever day we call Sabbath. The point is LORD wanted people to enter into rest from their labors and not work. That was point of Sabbath to rest and enter God's rest (Hebrews 4:10, Matthew 29:30)
 

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

 

"One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." (Romans 14:5-6).

Here is how God spent the Sabbath, "By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. ³ Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created ^[a]and made." (Genesis 2:2-3). The point is if we are to imitate the LORD, we should do as he did, rest on whatever day we call Sabbath. The point is LORD wanted people to enter into rest from their labors and not work. That was point of Sabbath to rest and enter God's rest (Hebrews 4:10, Matthew 29:30)
 

Romans 14 - one man observes one day above another while another man observes every day.. he who observes the day observes it unto the Lord. 

1. Refers to the Bible approved list of  annual holy days that we find in Lev 23.

2. Makes not reference to "Sabbath"

3. Has no case where "a man observes no day".

4. Makes not reference to "editing" one of the Bible approved days in Lev 23 to have it point to any day of your choice.

 

Exodus 20

⁸ “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. ⁹ Six days you shall labor and do all your work, ¹⁰ but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. ¹¹ For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

You said "rest on whatever day we call Sabbath."

God said " but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. "

 

Question - is the commandment "editable"?

Does it suggest that we can have our own Sabbath? Or that we should be honoring God's Sabbath?

How do you explain that text?

 

[Fidei Defensor]

1 minute ago, BobRyan said:

Romans 14 - one man observes one day above another while another man observes every day.. he who observes the day observes it unto the Lord. 

1. Refers to the Bible approved list of  annual holy days that we find in Lev 23.

2. Makes not reference to "Sabbath"

3. Has no case where "a man observes no day".

4. Makes not reference to "editing" one of the Bible approved days in Lev 23 to have it point to any day of your choice.

 

Exodus 20

⁸ “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. ⁹ Six days you shall labor and do all your work, ¹⁰ but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. ¹¹ For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

You said "rest on whatever day we call Sabbath."

God said " but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. "

 

Question - is the commandment "editable"?

Does it suggest that we can have our own Sabbath? Or that we should be honoring God's Sabbath?

How do you explain that text?

 

It is indeed editable, because we are under a new covenant (the edit of Emmanuel who has changed us from law of moses to Christ), "By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear," (Hebrews 8:13), "Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant," (Hebrews 7:22), "But when God found fault with the people, He said: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah," (Hebrews 8:8), "Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant," (Hebrews 9:15), "to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel," (Hebrews 12:24), "But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises." (Hebrews 8:6), "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins," (Matthew 26:28), "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, ³² not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. ³³ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ³⁴ And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more," (Jeremiah 31:31-34), "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law," (Galatians 3:10), "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all," (Galatians 5:2), "For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace," (Galatians 5:4), "The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins," (Romans 8:3), and "Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith." (Galatians 3:24).

Yes the Law and Old Covenant is editable, editable by God Himself. He changed it with nails (pens) in his hands, and stuck a New Covenant, a superior covenant in God's love. The Old Covenant was made with Moses, but we have one better than Moses, Jesus Christ, "For the law was given through Moses, but God’s unfailing love and faithfulness came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17). We are under a New Covenant, a New Testament, and better state of being than Moses and Israelites. They had God afar from them, we have God living in us (Colossians 1:27, John 17:20-23, 1 Corinthians 3:16). Moses waited for such a day of grace and new covenant, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. ⁴⁷ But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?” (John 5:46-47). The Law is now obsolete and fulfilled in Jesus (Matthew 15:17-20, Jesus is only one who could, because He's God and Man, the only one who can be sinless and do all Law perfectly see Hebrews), and so by abiding in Jesus and believing in Him (John 6:40) the law is fulfilled by the One who made it, and has edited with His death on cross and resurrection from grave.

I did not edit it, God Did.

[BobRyan]

23 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

It is indeed editable, because we are under a new covenant

[/quote]

Is the LAW of God "editable"?

Mark 7:6-13 Christ says "no".

New Covenant is in Jeremiah 31:31-33 where we find that the "Law of God" known to Jeremiah and his readers (exegesis demands that we accept this) - is what is written on the heart and mind under the NEW Covenant. And Hebrews 8:6-10 demonstrates that the New Covenant is "unchanged" from when it was written out by Jeremiah.

A fact that is freely admitted to by D.L. Moody, the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith .. etc.

What is more Paul makes it very clear that it is that "same" unit of LAW - the Ten Commandments that applies to the saints today - for it is that Law in which the 5th commandment "Is the FIRST Commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:2. Which is only true in that still-valid unit of Ten. Another fact freely admitted to by D.L. Moody, the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith .. etc.

Hebrews 8:6-10 tells us it is CHRIST that gave us the Ten Commandments on Sinai

 

Quote

 

(the edit of Emmanuel who has changed us from law of moses to Christ),

[/quote]

 

It is Christ who tells us in Mark 7:6-13 that the "Word of God"  - "Commandment of God" = "Moses said"

It is Christ who says in Matt 22 that the LAW of Moses found in Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 contains the two greatest commandments in the Bible - and is still binding on all.

 

Quote

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear," (Hebrews 8:13), "Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant," (Hebrews 7:22), "But when God found fault with the people, He said: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah," (Hebrews 8:8), "Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant," (Hebrews 9:15), "to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel," (Hebrews 12:24), "But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises." (Hebrews 8:6),

[/quote]

 

The covenant is the "form of agreement" it is not the LAW . So that as I am sure you will agree - we cannot say "it used to be wrong to take Gods name in vain ... but now that is not a sin any more". The point is not that the LAW is to be deleted but rather that it is written on the heart --- and not merely external on stone. True in the OT - Jer 31:31-33... true in the NT Hebrews 8:6=10.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" - and what law is that? The one where the 5th commandment "is the First Commandment WITH a promise" Ephesians 6:2 - which is only true in the unit of "Ten". So then - it is still a sin to take God's name in vain.

Which is why we can have Moses and Elijah in Matt 17 before the cross - standing WITH Christ in glory. They have that new covenant experience of the Law written on the heart and mind... so then they are not taking God's name in vain - and are aware that doing so would be sin.

 

Quote

 "The law of Moses was unable to save us  

The Law saying that we are not to take God's name in vain "Did not save" then and does not save now. But STILL it is written on the heart - then and written on the heart now under the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

Edited May 1, 2017 by BobRyan