Why people argue agaisnt healing today

[Guest]

2 hours ago, full goespel said:

What is your point? Try and keep it short. Looks like your against what I am saying if it is show me scripture and just get to it. If your genuinly interested. Go listen to Dan Mohler Todd White. Curry Blake. John G lake. David Hogan.

+1

 

[Guest]

Can anyone give any scriptural evidence as to why some are not healed? As far as I know, when everyone was brought to Jesus..."and they were ALL healed..." Jesus never turned anyone away when they asked Him for a healing, so I'm not quite sure why the modern church has adopted that "doctrine."

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, JesusGivesLifeMeaning said:

Can anyone give any scriptural evidence as to why some are not healed?

While it is true that all who came to Jesus of Nazareth were healed, it is not equally true for the apostles.  Paul himself could not be healed of his "thorn in the flesh" (a physical ailment).

We have a good example in Epaphroditus, who was "nigh unto death", and was only healed after much prayer, even though Paul had the gift of healing.  We have another example in Timothy, who was asked to drink a little wine for his stomach ailments, rather than come to Paul for miraculous healing. Had the gift of healing remained undiminished, Paul should have been able to simply touch these men and heal them.

The truth is that the spiritual gift of healing was temporary.  That is why the prayer of faith was designed to be the long term remedy.  And even there, not all are healed.  There are many saints who suffer from a multitude of ailments who are never healed in spite of much prayer.  And if Christians are not willing to face up to this reality, then they will become the victims of faith healers who are actually charlatans.  An investigation into Kathryn Kuhlman's "healings" revealed many fraudulent healings.

[Guest]

So, even though Jesus imparted His power to the apostles, they still didn't have "enough" power as He did to get people well? Why would Jesus only impart "1/2" a healing power to someone when sending them out to do His works?

Paul's thorn in the flesh is highly debated, and many scholars lean towards the thinking that this was actually an evil spirit, sent to buffet Paul ,to keep him humbled. As specific as Paul was with all of his teachings, making things plain in his explanation, don't you think that he would have simply stated, "I am suffering from an eye disease of which God has not healed me of", as is the thinking of many today. Again, thorn in the flesh is a very vague description of a physical ailment, contrasting Paul's writing style, detailed instructions and letters to the various brethren/churches.

Timothy - seemed to be a bit of a timid character, given to nervousness, which may have accounted for Paul's recommendation for a "little wine" to settle his stomach. Also, wine (especially of that day) is well known to be a preservative, a purifier.

The statement of the spiritual gift of healing was temporary - I don't see that lining up with the word. James, being the last apostle, commanded healing to be carried out by laying on of hands. Peter stated, "by His stripes we were healed..."

Doesn't it seem rather foolish to hold the belief that the creator of the universe provided healing all throughout the O.T., and covered in the atonement by Jesus' stripes, only to have it diminish or fall away.

I would rather lean on this promise - Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Kathryn Kuhlman...Well, I wasn't there, so I honestly cannot comment on any of that, or any of the other faith healers of past or present. However, if someone becomes healed in one of those services, how do you figure they have become a "victim?"

It is interesting to note that the original Greek word  for Salvation, "Sozo" is also the identical word meaning healing - "Saved-Healed." None of us question that Salvation is for ALL, but yet we question if healing is for ALL.

Healing is a point that we will obviously disagree on, and that is fine. But, I fully believe; I've seen too much at this point to believe otherwise. Not interested in a debate, I would rather see folks walk in divine health. Jesus gave us the promise, it is His will, so be it.

God Bless.

Edited November 26, 2016 by JesusGivesLifeMeaning

[full goespel]

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

 

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

While it is true that all who came to Jesus of Nazareth were healed, it is not equally true for the apostles.  Paul himself could not be healed of his "thorn in the flesh" (a physical ailment).

We have a good example in Epaphroditus, who was "nigh unto death", and was only healed after much prayer, even though Paul had the gift of healing.  We have another example in Timothy, who was asked to drink a little wine for his stomach ailments, rather than come to Paul for miraculous healing. Had the gift of healing remained undiminished, Paul should have been able to simply touch these men and heal them.

The truth is that the spiritual gift of healing was temporary.  That is why the prayer of faith was designed to be the long term remedy.  And even there, not all are healed.  There are many saints who suffer from a multitude of ailments who are never healed in spite of much prayer.  And if Christians are not willing to face up to this reality, then they will become the victims of faith healers who are actually charlatans.  An investigation into Kathryn Kuhlman's "healings" revealed many fraudulent healings.

Yes its true Jesus healed them all every time. Lets keep that in mind as we are growing into Him. What does that mean growing into Him. For what to good boys and girls?

I have asked many times now for some one to start a thread on Pauls sickness. Would you like to start one please?

Was there ever a time when Jesus had to pray more than once? Yes there was. Thank God that gives us hope to continue if it doesnt work first time every time.

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

We have a good example in Epaphroditus, who was "nigh unto death", and was only healed after much prayer, even though Paul had the gift of healing.

Yes he was nigh unto death and was healed/ And was healed. how is this a good example? Why did you wuote"he was nigh unto death " But you never quoted  " and was only healed after much prayer, " I looked for He recived much prayer. Where did you read that. Can you quote it please? He was healed. Matbe its how we read things. I read trusting God and Get blessed for it. Works for me.

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

We have another example in Timothy, who was asked to drink a little wine for his stomach ailments, rather than come to Paul for miraculous healing. Had the gift of healing remained undiminished, Paul should have been able to simply touch these men and heal them.

I will quote again what you never quoted just for the sake of having the Full picture.

1 Tim 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Tim often had stomach problems. He was leaving Paul. He would have been well when he left Paul. He often had problems with the stomach. SO the water will not help you Timothy. Take a little wine to avoid the water that was bad. If you have a flu and I pray for you to be healed. You will get healed. But If you are not walking in devine health. You will get the flu again. So how could Paul have done what you think He should have done? When we get saved do we fully look like Christ straight away. In heaven yes. ON the earth no. When Tim was taught by Paul about what He can do in Christ, did Tinm walk in it right away? No. Scripture says we are in like manner those who are just converted to Christ are, "as new-born babes," to "grow up" to the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. 1 Peter 2:2; ...

So Tim was not walking in the fullness of Christ.

Tim could not just come to paul they were miles apart. P{aul sent Tim.

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

Had the gift of healing remained undiminished, Paul should have been able to simply touch these men and heal them.

 

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

The truth is that the spiritual gift of healing was temporary.

Do you have a scripture for what you said here? If you dont you are adding to scripture. Do you want all the pagues that are mentioned in the scriptures? Right now you are on the edge of reciving them.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Please dont do that. Its not just for your sake, its for all the others who will accept what YOU think is right.

And if its temperal. How come I am laying hands on the sick and seeing them healed today? What God will do for one. He will do for all.

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

That is why the prayer of faith was designed to be the long term remedy.  And even there, not all are healed.

Again you are talking with no scripture. Please provide scripture to back this up. Thank you.

 

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

And even there, not all are healed.  There are many saints who suffer from a multitude of ailments who are never healed in spite of much prayer.

And I have many scriptures for this one again. You are not ment to be sick. If your sick. You would say nothing surerer than you will be sick. God does not talk like that.

^{James 5:14-16}  Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

¹⁵ And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

¹⁶ Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

We suffer because we are all arguing against God heals today. and You wonder why were sick. You might believ that I dont. Iseen people healed at MY word and Going. IN HIS NAME

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

And if Christians are not willing to face up to this reality, then they will become the victims of faith healers who are actually charlatans.  An investigation into Kathryn Kuhlman's "healings" revealed many fraudulent healings.

Why is it that I was the one how said that healing has a bad rep world wide in the churches. But you all bring up people who I never mentioned. Why is that you can call Gods word and me a liar and twisted, But I am the one who gets reprimanded in public? Why cant you see I am saying Gods even better than we thought. BUt you are all saying nah Hes not tha good. It going to be a sorry sight when He says Davy come on up here son. Hes al;ready said it to me through another guy. But what  asorry sight when Hes whipping away your tears over wasted years. You will be like Lord I never knew. Ehhh Davy told ya. Yes Lord but, shhhhh now its ok I actully do love you more than You ever understood. I love you says God. I love you.

So to summerize. Yopu are very short in scriptures here. Please provide any that you have, just so people can see a balanced view.

[Guest shiloh357]

38 minutes ago, JesusGivesLifeMeaning said:

 

Paul's thorn in the flesh is highly debated, and many scholars lean towards the thinking that this was actually an evil spirit, sent to buffet Paul ,to keep him humbled. As specific as Paul was with all of his teachings, making things plain in his explanation, don't you think that he would have simply stated, "I am suffering from an eye disease of which God has not healed me of", as is the thinking of many today. Again, thorn in the flesh is a very vague description of a physical ailment, contrasting Paul's writing style, detailed instructions and letters to the various brethren/churches.

 

The phrase, "thorn in the flesh"  was a common euphemism that has nothing to do with an evil spirit.  No scholar claims that it was.  False teachers like Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyers try to claim that it was because if Paul suffered from a physical problem, that God didn't heal, it undercuts their message about divine health for all.

Paul underwent floggings, and a stoning where he was left for dead.  Stoning was not meant to be survived.  The first stone weighed about 60-100 lbs and was meant to immediately kill the person being stoned by crushing their head.  Paul survived, but would have suffered traumatic head injuries similar to those who survive a car accident with traumatic head injuries.  Paul would have born the scars and after-effects of not only that, but the floggings and imprisonments in prisons that wreaked with filthy conditions creating infections and other problems.  

Paul would have had far more wrong with him after all those beatings, imprisonments, and so on than just an eye disease.   Paul would have been rather unimpressive to look upon.  He was scarred and scabbed and malnourished. 

Paul's thorn in the flesh was the ongoing physical disabilities and ailments as a result of the intense persecution he underwent throughout his ministry.   He had physical problems that made it hard to get around, probably hard to talk and to see.  He was in pretty bad shape.  But Jesus said that His power is made perfect in weakness.   Paul's chief ambition was that the world know Jesus and if being in that condition was part of God's plan, Paul was content to accept that.

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It is interesting to note that the original Greek word  for Salvation, "Sozo" is also the identical word meaning healing - "Saved-Healed." None of us question that Salvation is for ALL, but yet we question if healing is for ALL.

That's not quite accurate.   Sozo can mean healing in SOME contexts.   But you cannot take the word Sozo and apply healing to it every time it is used.  Salvation and healing are not interchangeable concepts.   Kenneth Copeland teaches that sozo means healing and salvation at the same time, and that is simply not true.  It doesn't work that way with English words and it didn't work that way in Greek.

Greek and Hebrew are very nuanced, far more precise than English.  Greek and Hebrew words play double duty, triple duty, quadruple duty, and so they have multiple meanings, but only meaning can be applied per usage of a given word.   Sozo can mean salvation.   But that doesn't mean that you can take the word healing and apply it in the same manner as "salvation." 

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Doesn't it seem rather foolish to hold the belief that the creator of the universe provided healing all throughout the O.T., and covered in the atonement by Jesus' stripes, only to have it diminish or fall away.

Physical healing is not in the stripes of Jesus.  The word used for "healing" in the Hebrew of Is. 53:5 is a word that refers to restoration. The entire context is spiritual.   It is not talking about physical healing, but spiritual healing or restoration. 

Sickness and disease are part of the curse of the Fall.   We have been redeemed from the curse of the law (spiritual death and separation from God) but we will continue to experience the curse of the Fall until we receive our new glorified bodies.

 

[enoob57]

When one examines the structure of the New Testament Jesus explains the purpose of His miracles

John 14:11 (KJV)

[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

}snip{ Applied NT comentary
Jn 14:11 Then Jesus told His disciples, "Believe me. Believe not only in me, but also believe what I say." The faith of a Christian has two parts. First, we must believe in Jesus Himself personally. Second, we must believe that what He has said is true. Faith in Jesus without faith also in the truth of His words is nothing but blind faith. But Jesus knew that the disciples' faith was weak. So He said, "Even if you can't believe my words now, at least believe the miracles I have done. My miracles will show you who I am" (see Jn 5:36; 10:25). Faith based on miracles is weak faith, but it is better than no faith. Jesus never despised weak faith; after all, most Christians start out with weak faith in the beginning. But faith must be strengthened, or it will not endure when trials come. We must remember that the devil and his servants can also do miracles (Mk 13:22-23). We must look not only at Jesus' miracles, but also at His character, at His inner qualities. We must look at His motives. False Christs and false prophets do miracles to bring glory to themselves. Christ performed His miracles to bring glory to God. Christ's miracles are signs that point men to God.
}snip{

I have prayed for you.... you evidently unwittingly are promoting people to look for Jesus through signs and wonders ... yet Jesus warned us of you and yours
Matthew 24:22 (KJV)

[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[25] Behold, I have told you before.

[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

In fact it is even spoken of as others have said to you

John 20:29 (KJV)

[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[30] And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

[31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As you can clearly see by The Word our faith is to come from The Word of God and not by signs and wonders ... in fact a more stern warningn exists for you

John 10:1 (KJV)

[10:1] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

[2] But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

[3] To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

[4] And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

[5] And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

We hear the voice of God through The Holy Spirit within and Written Word without thus we have a foundtion sure and of that which will not pass away!
Love, Steven

 

 

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, JesusGivesLifeMeaning said:

Paul's thorn in the flesh is highly debated, and many scholars lean towards the thinking that this was actually an evil spirit, sent to buffet Paul ,to keep him humbled...

It is only debated by those who do not want to take the term at face value.  In this context "flesh" = body = physical ailment.

Some believe that Paul had poor eyesight, hence the mention of writing in "large letters", and that some Christians would have gladly given their eyes to him.  Whatever it was, it was certainly not an evil spirit, since Paul could command evil spirits to depart (and he did on one recorded occasion).

In any event, physical healing today is not given to all believers, and the sign gift of healing is not to be found in the churches.

[full goespel]

have a look at Dan Mohler or Curry Blake on YT

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by full goespel

[B3L13v3R]

22 hours ago, full goespel said:

What is your point? Try and keep it short.

 

A few "short" unanswered questions on your part:

1. So, FG, is Joni in the middle of God's will or no in her current condition?
2. Have the few thousand hours of the teachings of men (that I've seen you mention) led you to believe she is not?
3. I previously asked, have you ever seen or read her testimony?
4. FG, Does trust in God remain the same when your not "instantly" healed?
5. FG, So, you never acknowledged the billion white blood cells made daily by our body. Do you not find that a miracle?