The Holy Trinity?

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Brittany said:

Are there any verses telling us to worship/praise the HS?

No, there is not.  There are no commandments to worship the Holy Spirit or to pray to the Holy Spirit.   But that doesn't change the fact that the Holy Spirit IS called God.   Do you reject Acts 5:3-4?   Was Peter wrong?

[Paper mache]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

No, there is not.  There are no commandments to worship the Holy Spirit or to pray to the Holy Spirit.   But that doesn't change the fact that the Holy Spirit IS called God.   Do you reject Acts 5:3-4?   Was Peter wrong?

Then I will not worship or pray to the Holy Spirit. If there are no examples of it being done and there are no commands to do so, then I won't do it.

I do recognize that the Holy Spirit either is a person of the Godhead or a force of God, maybe even both. I don't think I'm even going to continue trying to figure it out. God can't be understood, and that includes the Holy Spirit.

[Guest shiloh357]

34 minutes ago, Brittany said:

Then I will not worship or pray to the Holy Spirit. If there are no examples of it being done and there are no commands to do so, then I won't do it.

 

Okay.

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I do recognize that the Holy Spirit either is a person of the Godhead or a force of God, maybe even both. I don't think I'm even going to continue trying to figure it out. God can't be understood, and that includes the Holy Spirit.

Well, He is not a force of God because the Bible doesn't present him that way.   The Bible is our final arbiter on all matters of the Christian faith, so that is what we must go by.   The Bible gives us enough light to know that the Holy Spirit is a Person and that He is a co-equal and co-eternal Person in the Godhead.  

How God can be one God, but three Persons is a mystery that we are not given light to understand.   But being unable to understand doesn't remove our accountability before God to believe what He says.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Brittany said:

Matthew 28:19 is speaking about baptism though, not the Godhead or what composes the Godhead.

Really?  Kindly read that verse over and over again.  In whose Name are Christians to be baptized?

[thilipsis]

5 hours ago, Brittany said:

It appears to me, because of that last line in John 14:15-17 "...He dwells with you..." that these verses could possibly be referring to the Spirit of Christ, since Christ was dwelling with them at the time, and His Spirit would soon dwell IN them. 

I'm using the definition of God as in essence - the nature. Is this the incorrect definition?

Thanks! I'll look into the Upper Room Discourse. If the Trinity is the truth, I pray that God reveals it to me. 

God bless

At baptism the Holy Spirit descended in the bodily form of a dove, the Father spoke from heaven. The Holy Spirit was with them because the Holy Spirit was with him. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit took charge of the church and one day Christ will return. The Apostles were upset that Jesus was leaving but he was telling them the Holy Spirit will come, if I don't leave he wont, but he will and be with you forever. Then sometime later I will return. It makes sense if you can juggle some of the confusing overlap.

[Paper mache]

15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Well, He is not a force of God because the Bible doesn't present him that way.   The Bible is our final arbiter on all matters of the Christian faith, so that is what we must go by.   The Bible gives us enough light to know that the Holy Spirit is a Person and that He is a co-equal and co-eternal Person in the Godhead.  

What the Bible really means is debatable. Here are the main reasons I doubt the personality of the Holy Spirit;

1) On multiple occasions, when Jesus Christ and God the Father are mentioned as authoritative figures (as we see in the epistles and other places such as when Paul spoke of Christ sitting on the right hand of God the Father in Colossians 3:1, and the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned, and also when Stephen looked into heaven in Acts 7:55 and saw Jesus standing next to the Father, but the Holy Spirit is only mentioned as the instrument by which Stephen saw it), the Holy Spirit is omitted. If the Holy Spirit were a co-equal Person of the Holy Trinity, wouldn't he be there with the other two Persons?

2) Since we are told to worship God, and there are verses specifically telling us to worship the Father and the Son, why aren't there any verses telling us to worship the Holy Spirit?

Of course, there are verses which seem to point to a personality. And I may be a little stumped on those. But I suppose a possible explanation would be that God the Father and Jesus Christ are spirits, they are made up of a substance "Spirit". They are both holy, so they are Holy Spirits. So perhaps when the Bible speaks of the Spirit doing things, it is actually either Christ or God the Father that are actually doing the things. But, this is only speculation and I'm not trying to put this idea forth as truth. I don't know if it holds up Scripturally yet.

39 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Really?  Kindly read that verse over and over again.  In whose Name are Christians to be baptized?

"In the name of" is just about the same as "by the authority of". So, when we hear a cop yell to a running criminal, "Stop, in the name of the law!" Is the law a person? Of course not.

13 minutes ago, thilipsis said:

At baptism the Holy Spirit descended in the bodily form of a dove, the Father spoke from heaven. The Holy Spirit was with them because the Holy Spirit was with him. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit took charge of the church and one day Christ will return. The Apostles were upset that Jesus was leaving but he was telling them the Holy Spirit will come, if I don't leave he wont, but he will and be with you forever. Then sometime later I will return. It makes sense if you can juggle some of the confusing overlap.

Do you think you could please explain further?

[OneLight]

12 minutes ago, Brittany said:

What the Bible really means is debatable. Here are the main reasons I doubt the personality of the Holy Spirit

Just read this opening and wondered how you see Jesus meaning while introducing the Holy Spirit, saying in John 14:15-18:  "If you love Me, keep My commandments.  And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."

Start there and read the next few chapters.  Notice that the Holy Spirit is never addressed as an "it", but as a person with "He" and "Him".

[Guest shiloh357]

18 minutes ago, Brittany said:

What the Bible really means is debatable.

Not in this case because you haven't provided any evidence of the Bible calling the Holy Spirit an impersonal force.  You have provided no solid evidence that the Bible is being ambiguous in any way shape or form. 

 

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Here are the main reasons I doubt the personality of the Holy Spirit;

1) On multiple occasions, when Jesus Christ and God the Father are mentioned as authoritative figures (as we see in the epistles and other places such as when Paul spoke of Christ sitting on the right hand of God the Father in Colossians 3:1, and the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned, and also when Stephen looked into heaven in Acts 7:55 and saw Jesus standing next to the Father, but the Holy Spirit is only mentioned as the instrument by which Stephen saw it), the Holy Spirit is omitted. If the Holy Spirit were a co-equal Person of the Holy Trinity, wouldn't he be there with the other two Persons?

Because the Holy Spirit was on Earth.  Remember, Jesus sent Him to be our helper, our comforter, our teacher, our prayer partner and He is the one who indwells us.   So just because He is not up in Heaven, it doesn't mean He isn't a Person.   He is personally here to teach us, lead us , encourage us.  You know, things a Person does.

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2) Since we are told to worship God, and there are verses specifically telling us to worship the Father and the Son, why aren't there any verses telling us to worship the Holy Spirit?

I have explained this before to you.  I have responded to this question already.   The Holy Spirit's job is point all men to Jesus, to convict of sin.   His job is to point us to worshiping Jesus and the Father.  In truth, the Holy Spirit points us to Jesus and Jesus points us to the Father.   That is one way in which the three of them cooperate.

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Of course, there are verses which seem to point to a personality. And I may be a little stumped on those. But I suppose a possible explanation would be that God the Father and Jesus Christ are spirits, they are made up of a substance "Spirit". They are both holy, so they are Holy Spirits. So perhaps when the Bible speaks of the Spirit doing things, it is actually either Christ or God the Father that are actually doing the things. But, this is only speculation and I'm not trying to put this idea forth as truth. I don't know if it holds up Scripturally yet.

 

No, because Jesus has a body.  Remember, Jesus ascended bodily into Heaven.   The other problem you have is finding Scripture to back up that idea.   How come you're not appealing to the Bible?   Instead of coming  up with an explanation that you have no biblical reason to arrive at, why not use the Bible as the measuring rod for what you believe? 

It appears that you want to take what the Bible says on your own terms.  Do you believe the Bible is the divinely inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God?

 

[brakelite]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

How can an impersonal force guide you into all truth, convict of sin, instruct, or sanctify you?  Those are the actions of a person. 

Acts 5:3-4 tells us that the Holy Spirit is God.  Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God, according to Peter.

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, it is Christ Himself. It is not a third person however that dwells within us, it is the Father AND the Son. Christ in us, the hope of glory. If anyone does not have the Spirit of CHRIST, he is none of His. God is Spirit. And it is that Spirit, the Spirit OF GOD, that dwells i us. Why invent a third person to make something that is already difficult to fully comprehend, into something that is nonsensical?

[Guest shiloh357]

13 minutes ago, brakelite said:

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, it is Christ Himself.

If the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force why are you calling Him an "it?"

Secondly, the Holy Spirit is not Christ.   Jesus said that when He departed He would send us another comforter.  So Jesus sending someone other than Himself.  Secondly, at Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in bodily form as a dove.  So they cannot be the same person.  Read your Bible.

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It is not a third person however that dwells within us, it is the Father AND the Son. Christ in us, the hope of glory.

Yes He is.  Romans 8:9 says He indwells us.

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If anyone does not have the Spirit of CHRIST, he is none of His. God is Spirit. And it is that Spirit, the Spirit OF GOD, that dwells i us. Why invent a third person to make something that is already difficult to fully comprehend, into something that is nonsensical?

The Holy Spirit is not an invention.    For those of us who love Jesus, we know that He has sent the Holy Spirit to indwell, empower, encourage, instruct and lead us into all truth.