1Thes.4 = Day of the Lord

[BobRyan]

4 hours ago, Keras said:

So you are happy to deny the scriptures saying how the Lord will send fire to destroy His enemies? Amos 1, Isaiah 66:15-17, +

At Jesus' Return, He just wipes our the army of the Anti-Christ, at Armageddon.

True but Armageddon is at the 2nd coming. It destroys the living wicked -- not the dead wicked of all ages.

The first part of Isaiah 66 -- the part you reference appears to refer to the 2nd coming - and the death of the living wicked who are alive at that time.

The fire of Rev 20 is 1000 years later and there we have the lake of fire and the resurrection of all the wicked of all ages.

Quote

  You mix up prophecy to make itallhappenattheReturn.

Realize that there has to be some kind of dramatic event to enable the establishment of the One World Govt. Paul talks about it in 1 Thess 5:1-3 and the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath that comes as a thief,

That is the 2nd coming.

Quote

cannot be the same Day as the Return; which will be known to the exact day by those with a Bible. That glorious Day will be 1260 days after the Anti-Christ sits in the Temple.

There is no statement that the 2nd coming happens 1260 days after the antichrist sits in the temple. Rather the 1260 (42 months, time times and half a time) of Rev 11,12,13 are apocalyptic timelines that use day-for-year and refer to the 1260 years of the dark ages as Rev 12 points out.

[wingnut-]

7 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

That fiery event happens after the 1000 years according to Rev 20 and is the "lake of fire" event as stated there. The 2nd resurrection takes place after the 1000 years - then the wicked of all ages are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

 

However there is the other fire event - the Rev 19 fire event (and sudden death) for the living wicked - at the second coming, at the start of the 1000 years.

Rev 19: ²⁰ Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. ²¹ And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

2 Thess 1: , ⁵ which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; ⁶ since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, ⁷ and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, ⁸ in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. ⁹ These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, ¹⁰ when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

John 14:1-3 "If I go away I will come again..."

 

I understand there are two different battles, I was talking about the prophecies from the Old Testament that describe devastation to the earth, which I don't see happening until after the millennium, at this final battle.  I'm also not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying the fire that comes down from heaven is the lake of fire?

God bless

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

I understand there are two different battles, I was talking about the prophecies from the Old Testament that describe devastation to the earth, which I don't see happening until after the millennium, at this final battle.  I'm also not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying the fire that comes down from heaven is the lake of fire?

God bless

"desolate earth" that is mentioned in the OT is the condition of planet Earth between the second coming and the events of Rev 20 after the 1000 years. During that 1000 year period -- all the wicked are dead and all the righteous saints have been raptured - so they are with Christ - in "his Father's house" as John 14 states.

[Keras]

The belief of all of God's Judgement/punishment happening at the 2nd coming is quite wrong. Proved by Rev 15:1, that says the wrath of God is completed after the last plagues of the Great Tribulation.  Also this belief necessitates the shuffling of the Sixth Seal. Not advisable to do that. Rev 22:18-19  It is not the wrath of Jesus that kills the armies at Armageddon, just a disposal operation and the chaining up of Satan.

There will be a devastating event that is called many times in the Bible, as the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, a Day far removed from the glorious Return. It will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt, but we Christians will gather in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 31, +

Five attacks yet to happen:

The Bible prophets describe five attacks by armies against peoples and entities, that await fulfilment in these end times. They are all described differently and all occur at different times, but the common elements are; they all take place in the holy Land and they are all won by the Lord.

In their correct sequence:

 

1/ The Islamic Confederation attack against the State of Israel. Psalms 83:1-18, Micah 4:11-12

2/ The Gog/Magog attack against the new nation of Beulah. Ezekiel 37-38, Joel 2:20

3/ The conquest of Beulah, by the Anti-Christ. Revelation 13:5-7, Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25

4/ The battle of Armageddon by an army from all the nations, at the Return of Jesus. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:19, Daniel 8:25

5/ The final rebellion against God at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:7-9, Daniel 2:34-35

 

For what reason do they attack?

1a Because of their ancient enmity against Jacobs descendants.  Ezekiel 25:1-17

2a In order for God to display His power and to make Himself known to His people and the nations. Before Jesus’ visible Return.  Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:7

3a The Anti-Christ will break the 7 year treaty with Beulah. Daniel 9:27, Rev 13:7

4a It is Satan’s attempt to prevent the Return of Jesus. Revelation 16:14

5a Satan’s final deception of mankind. Revelation 20:3 & 7-9

 

What the Lord uses to achieve victory and the results of these attacks:

1b The Middle East is virtually depopulated, by fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis, caused by a massive explosion of the sun. Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 30:25-28, Zephaniah 2:4-15, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 12:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18

2b The entire Gog/Magog army is wiped out, by earthquakes and fire. Ezekiel 38:18-22,  Ezekiel 39:3-5, Joel 2:20

3b  Beulah will be conquered and the Lord’s people tested. Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31-35, Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 11:2

4b The Anti-Christs army is destroyed by the Sword of the Word and he is chained up. Revelation 20:19-21, Daniel 11:25

5b The armies are burned up and Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:9-10

 

What happens to the dead?

1c They are burned to ashes by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1&3, Isaiah 33:12

2c They are buried in Wadi Mujib. Ezekiel 39:11

3c Their souls are kept in heaven awaiting Jesus’ Return. Daniel 11:35, Revelation 20:4

4c Their bodies are food for the birds and animals. Revelation 19:21

5c  They are totally consumed by fire from heaven. Revelation 20:9

[Diaste]

On 5/30/2017 at 9:01 PM, OneLight said:

You do realize that you are trying to put Revelation 21 before Revelation 19?  It just cannot be that way, unless your bible looks like a pretzel, twisted in circles, crossing over itself everywhere.

Print out chapters 19:11 through 22:5.  Cut out the events in them, and place them side by side, from left to right, as it unfolds in the bible.  That is how Revelation will pan out.  You just created a timeline of events that reflects how God told John to write, as this is how it will happen.

I do not care in what order the scriptures were compiled. Who says the translators got the order correct? Unless they had the entire book in original form then order is meaningless. In fact it appears sections of Revelation were found over a period of centuries so I'm not sure a definitive answer on perfect order exists. 

Even if that's the case the truth of God and His word for us about the end of the age is fully and perfectly preserved.

While it's important to discern timing I just don't see a clear order. What language leads us to the idea that one necessarily follows another? Just because John wrote what he saw, does that mean the events must occur in that order? What if the only order is the succession of visions and not chronology? I don't see, "Immediately following...", "Soon after...", "Straight away...", "Without delay...", etc in the text in  question. I see the conjunction, 'and' quite a bit but that gives no to clue to timing, succession or chronology.

Then, as I did, I looked at events for real clues. We cannot deny that at the GWTJ the sea exists as it gives up the dead so they can be judged. But when NJ comes down from heaven there is no sea. Therefore, from this clue we can begin, begin I say, to think NJ appears on earth AFTER the GWTJ. Unless you believe the sea is going to disappear for NJ then reappear for the GWTJ. This chronology makes sense for another reason. The earth itself must be cleansed and made new to be ready for the Holy City. If the dead were still in the sea and the grave the earth could not be made new and that has to happen before NJ arrives. No one brings their bride to anathema. 

According to scripture those who, " and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;" live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. Are you saying Jesus reigns from old brick and mortar Jerusalem for 1000 years? I don' think that city is fit for the one true God-King. Besides Jerusalem is destroyed during the last week, e.g., Rev 16:19, "¹⁹ And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:" And so old Jerusalem is destroyed. Also in Rev 11:8, Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt in a spiritual sense. The Holy King is going to rule from a city of wickedness? I think not.

Since this is true, where are all the thrones going to be? Where is the Great King ruling from? 

From this we must conclude the GWTJ occurs at the end of the 70th week and the.....

Hmm...

Maybe this isn't right.

I'll have to ponder this but perhaps it's Jesus Return for a 1000 years, then GWTJ, then NJ. I'm missing something here and there are new questions to answer. Back to ya later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OneLight]

55 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I do not care in what order the scriptures were compiled. Who says the translators got the order correct? Unless they had the entire book in original form then order is meaningless. In fact it appears sections of Revelation were found over a period of centuries so I'm not sure a definitive answer on perfect order exists.

Even if that's the case the truth of God and His word for us about the end of the age is fully and perfectly preserved.

I don't believe you actually don't care in what order the scriptures were compiled.   Tell me, do you think God cares?  Also, how can it be that the translators got it wrong and yet the scriptures of the end of age be perfectly preserved?

55 minutes ago, Diaste said:

While it's important to discern timing I just don't see a clear order. What language leads us to the idea that one necessarily follows another? Just because John wrote what he saw, does that mean the events must occur in that order? What if the only order is the succession of visions and not chronology? I don't see, "Immediately following...", "Soon after...", "Straight away...", "Without delay...", etc in the text in  question. I see the conjunction, 'and' quite a bit but that gives no to clue to timing, succession or chronology.

Then, as I did, I looked at events for real clues. We cannot deny that at the GWTJ the sea exists as it gives up the dead so they can be judged. But when NJ comes down from heaven there is no sea. Therefore, from this clue we can begin, begin I say, to think NJ appears on earth AFTER the GWTJ. Unless you believe the sea is going to disappear for NJ then reappear for the GWTJ. This chronology makes sense for another reason. The earth itself must be cleansed and made new to be ready for the Holy City. If the dead were still in the sea and the grave the earth could not be made new and that has to happen before NJ arrives. No one brings their bride to anathema.

Nobody has a perfect understanding, as we still see in a mirror dimly.  My question is, should we accept Gods words as it is written, or should we rearrange them because God didn't know how to write His words to us so we would understand?   The answer is obvious. Yet, man, instead of accepting scripture as it is written, realizing that man has the problem with understanding how God provided His scripture the way He did, rearranges scripture in order to feel as they have some sort of real understanding.  I would far rather leave scripture as written and accept that I do not understand then to place scripture out of context to feel as if I have understanding.

I will comment on one statement you made about the earth must be cleaned.  We are told there will be a new earth and a new heaven.  Not a renewed earth and a renewed heaven.  They are new, not the old cleansed.

55 minutes ago, Diaste said:

According to scripture those who, " and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;" live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. Are you saying Jesus reigns from old brick and mortar Jerusalem for 1000 years? I don' think that city is fit for the one true God-King. Besides Jerusalem is destroyed during the last week, e.g., Rev 16:19, "¹⁹ And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:" And so old Jerusalem is destroyed. Also in Rev 11:8, Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt in a spiritual sense. The Holy King is going to rule from a city of wickedness? I think not.

Since this is true, where are all the thrones going to be? Where is the Great King ruling from? 

From this we must conclude the GWTJ occurs at the end of the 70th week and the.....

Hmm...

Maybe this isn't right.

I'll have to ponder this but perhaps it's Jesus Return for a 1000 years, then GWTJ, then NJ. I'm missing something here and there are new questions to answer. Back to ya later.

Again, scripture is silent on how Jesus will reign during the millennium.  Man, trying to gain a better understanding for himself, adds their ideas to scripture when scripture is silent. Is this wise? 

I like how Brother Joe give a very simple explanation of man in his signature " When I get on my high horse, I usually find Jesus rides off on his donkey "

I also hold fast to Proverbs 3:5-6

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

 

[Diaste]

46 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I don't believe you actually don't care in what order the scriptures were compiled.   Tell me, do you think God cares?  Also, how can it be that the translators got it wrong and yet the scriptures of the end of age be perfectly preserved?

Nobody has a perfect understanding, as we still see in a mirror dimly.  My question is, should we accept Gods words as it is written, or should we rearrange them because God didn't know how to write His words to us so we would understand?   The answer is obvious. Yet, man, instead of accepting scripture as it is written, realizing that man has the problem with understanding how God provided His scripture the way He did, rearranges scripture in order to feel as they have some sort of real understanding.  I would far rather leave scripture as written and accept that I do not understand then to place scripture out of context to feel as if I have understanding.

I'm not rearranging scripture. I'm stating that while some events are clearly chronological in and of themselves, they are at the same time concurrent. Like 3 cable programming stations. All the shows on a single station are consecutive, but they run concurrently with the other two. The events of the end of the age do this at a certain level. If scripture is to be taken as written then the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are the same event:

Rev 6 Sixth seal

¹⁷ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can  withstand it?”

Rev 11 Seventh trump

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,

46 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I will comment on one statement you made about the earth must be cleaned.  We are told there will be a new earth and a new heaven.  Not a renewed earth and a renewed heaven.  They are new, not the old cleansed.

Yes. As I said there were a few questions raised as I was typing. I'll get back to you on that.

46 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Again, scripture is silent on how Jesus will reign during the millennium.  Man, trying to gain a better understanding for himself, adds their ideas to scripture when scripture is silent. Is this wise?

  No. But we tend to this and none are immune. In this case I do not know either. I have not yet decided if I simply heard that NJ was on earth during the millennium, and Jesus and the saints reigned from there, or if I was comprehending either correctly or incorrectly. But I will get back you after I carefully look over the text.

I know for certain that all the knowledge God has for us is perfectly preserved in full form in scripture. What I meant was that finding the manuscripts was a centuries long task and at this point I cannot be certain that all the events are in the order in which they occurred. I had heard stories of the early church in possession of only a single page of one of Paul's letters. So to compile the NT the letters had to be tracked down. Does the order of the epistles really matter?  What if only parts of Isaiah were found in one century and more found in later century? This is how a great many manuscripts were compiled. No one could reasonably declare that he wrote one section a week earlier than the other, except some other historical document shed some light. I know this has occurred but our knowledge is incomplete. We find new insights into the ancient biblical texts frequently, and dates are always being disputed. It's possible we will never be fully certain. That being said I do think Rev is in order, as written, as two copies were found complete. I think in 3rd century AD from what I read.

Edited June 3, 2017 by OneLight
seperated quote for easier reading

[OneLight]

10 minutes ago, Diaste said:

50 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I don't believe you actually don't care in what order the scriptures were compiled.   Tell me, do you think God cares?  Also, how can it be that the translators got it wrong and yet the scriptures of the end of age be perfectly preserved?

Nobody has a perfect understanding, as we still see in a mirror dimly.  My question is, should we accept Gods words as it is written, or should we rearrange them because God didn't know how to write His words to us so we would understand?   The answer is obvious. Yet, man, instead of accepting scripture as it is written, realizing that man has the problem with understanding how God provided His scripture the way He did, rearranges scripture in order to feel as they have some sort of real understanding.  I would far rather leave scripture as written and accept that I do not understand then to place scripture out of context to feel as if I have understanding.

I'm not rearranging scripture. I'm stating that while some events are clearly chronological in and of themselves, they are at the same time concurrent. Like 3 cable programming stations. All the shows on a single station are consecutive, but they run concurrently with the other two. The events of the end of the age do this at a certain level. If scripture is to be taken as written then the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are the same event:

Rev 6 Sixth seal

¹⁷ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can  withstand it?”

Rev 11 Seventh trump

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,

No, they are not the same event.  You see similarities and you decide they are the same.  Instead of looking at the similarities, look at what separates them.  I the 6th seal, it is the world proclaiming that they believe Gods wrath has come.  In the 7th trumpet, the proclamation comes from twenty-four elders.  They are not the same events nor are they at the same time.  In the 6th seal, the confirmation of the world is in the present tense:

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

At the 7th Trumpet, the proclamation is in the past tense:

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

If they were the same, the 6th seal would read had come, or the 7th trumpet would read has come.  Can you see the differences?

[OneLight]

23 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I know for certain that all the knowledge God has for us is perfectly preserved in full form in scripture. What I meant was that finding the manuscripts was a centuries long task and at this point I cannot be certain that all the events are in the order in which they occurred. I had heard stories of the early church in possession of only a single page of one of Paul's letters. So to compile the NT the letters had to be tracked down. Does the order of the epistles really matter?  What if only parts of Isaiah were found in one century and more found in later century? This is how a great many manuscripts were compiled. No one could reasonably declare that he wrote one section a week earlier than the other, except some other historical document shed some light. I know this has occurred but our knowledge is incomplete. We find new insights into the ancient biblical texts frequently, and dates are always being disputed. It's possible we will never be fully certain. That being said I do think Rev is in order, as written, as two copies were found complete. I think in 3rd century AD from what I read.

When it comes to a specific prophecy, it does matter how is it written, otherwise, any change will bring change to the prophecy.  That is very different then if John came before Mark, or if James came before Romans.

It looks like you are in for a very long time of research and study if you really seek to understand how scripture was written and from which codex it was written from.  The first wall you will come upon is the division between which codex to follow, which to use and which not to use.  IF you follow through, realize you will not only have some questions answered, but you will also have many more questions develop along the way.  This is not something someone can do lightly.  Praying that you do not give up and become discouraged if you decide to take upon yourself this line of studies.

[iamlamad]

On 6/3/2017 at 2:39 AM, inchrist said:

Wrong, Revelation does not stand on its own. God gave the same prophecy to a number of the prophets notably Isaiah and Peter who himself linked his teaching on the Day of the Lord with the new heaven and the new earth.

Revelation does not stand in isolation, instead what I see is an attempt to fabricate an embargo on scriptures on the same subject matter. 

Christ himself speaks of that day to His disciples. “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28).

Regeneration: 3824 paliggenesia

Definition: a new birth, regeneration, renewal.

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon:

the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire.....  

Thayer's Expanded Definition

new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation

Romans 8:21

that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Acts 3:21 

Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. .

Restore: 605 apokatastasis

Definition: restitution, reestablishment, restoration.

Johns usage of the word NEW

When John speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, he uses the Greek word  kainos  and is emphasizing the quality of the new heaven and earth – not that it is new in time or origin. It is the same heaven and earth, but cleansed and regenerated from the consequence of sin. In otherwords purged by Fire

Revelation 21:1 uses the words passed away .

Let it be noted that neither in the Bible nor in classical Greek is there an illustration of this verb ever meaning annihilation or passing out of existence.

The idea is great change should be evident, since we see a great change from a creation in bondage into a creation that is liberated = rebirth, restitution.

Its the same scriptual theme over and over.

The purging of sin to liberate creation

For behold, the LORD will come with fire Isaiah 66:16 = restitution, liberation, rebirth, to be made new in quality by purging with FIRE

Lord Jesus is revealed from heavenwith His mighty angels,(2 Thessalonians 1:7) in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:8 =  restitution, liberation, rebirth, to be made new in quality by purging with FIRE

From the 6th seal to the end of the 7th seal = sin being purged lossend creation from its captivity =  restitution, liberation, rebirth, to be made new in quality by purging with FIRE

It is your interpretation and technique that is being found flawed.

Revelation 20:11-15 concerning satans status at the end of the Millennium is given only to complete the discussion of events which occur at the beginning of the Millennium. 

There is no rearranging as you so claim and stands in perfect chronology of Isaiah 65 and 66 which clearly teaches that the new heavens and the new earth will be renovated before the Millennium begins, not at its end.

Let me remind you, it is God the same source who repeated the same prophecy to the other prophets, repeating a prophecy is not adding or subtracting [/b]...but repeated

It is you who is placing a fabricated embargo on scriptures on the misunderstanding of a verse.

Maybe Isaiah 65 and 66 that is not chronological.