Daniel's 9:26 & 27: what is the Author's intent?

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

At this stage I dont even trust you with scripture or even handlying scripture correctly.

You even agreed Christ anointing ends the 69th week....and then you expect us all to believe that we must ignore the time of Christ ministry in Daniel goes into the 70th week?

We cannot even agree on the basics here of what is written.

²⁶ After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

All we know from this verse about his death is that it will be AFTER the 69 weeks have ended.  Next He mentions the soldiers of Titus that destroyed the city and the temple. This was 70 AD.

Please note, He STILL has not mentioned the 70th week.  Why? It is very simple: the 70th week is future to US today.

By the way, don't accredit me with words I did not write. TIME ends the 69th week. Not somebody: TIME ends it. Why do you make this so complicated? The 69 week (of years) ENDS. Then Jesus is cut off. Then, years later, the temple is torn down block by block. And Daniel has still not arrived at the 70th week. 

Enter a mall, look for a store called GAP. Perhaps you will get it then.   Daniel (led by the Holy Spirit) put a GAP after verse 26 and before verse 27.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

Completely two different scenarios and prophecies...

Daniel 11 you wont find anything in the messiah.

Daniel 9 speaks of the messiah...time lines of the messiah

I only mention it because it is a TYPE of what will come in the future: an abomination will be placed in the temple and this will stop the daily sacrifices - exactly what happened with Antiochus.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

You do realize Christ is the word right? 

 

 

More opinions from you....I would love actual scriptual support from you one day.

So you doubt Christ would know the timing of his death spoken of in Daniel? Christ knew the timing of His anointing from Daniel....because Christ came to do the following:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

....but He wouldnt know the timing of His death from Daniel, that Daniel doesn't give us the timing of Christ death within the seventy sevens?

What you propose is to remove the entirety of Christ MINISTRY and crucifixion completely out of picture and then try and place it somewhere at a time between the 69th and 70th week and not in the 70th week 

Your logical fails  because the angel said the events of verse 24 would occur during the seventy weeks. Context.

Dan9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

To make in hebrew is chatham

Catham means to seal. In otherwords Christ is to seal an end to sin. The only way Christ is going to seal an end to sin is by born again believers in Christ, a process which was started at the crucifixion for the atonement of sin. Still part of the seventy sevens. Stay in context Dan 9:24

What number comes after 69?

It does not say end of 69....After is not equal to at the end of.

Staying in context: because the angel said that "reconciliation for iniquity" would occur during the 490 years. 

Why, must Daniel continually repeat things for you? Are you unable to stay in context of Dan 9:24?

False again, the goal of the seventy sevens prophecy is intensely Messianic,  the principal emphasis is not upon the beginning and ending of "time" but upon the events which were to transpire within the seventy sevens. 

Zechariah 11:10-12

10I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.

The difference between your human view and Gods view.

Again daniel 11 does not have messianic overtones, where as Daniel 9 does you are comparing apples to peaches. All you can prove is the latter half of the seventy sevens.

There is repeated reference in Scripture to a 3.5 year period of time yet future. On the other hand there is an absolute lack of any prophetic discussions with any of the apostles and with Christ which points to a seven year period of time or any signal of its beginning.

And upon the wing of abominations =  The last half of the 70th week. 

 When the Lord Jesus answered His disciples' questions regarding His coming He pointed to "the abomination of desolation... spoken of through Daniel the prophet in Matt. 24:15 = The last half of the 70th week. Christ makes no reference to any antichrist signing or breaking a covenant with many. As that was fulfilled by Christ.

Christ cutting Isaiah 61/ first half of Isaiah 61 = first half of 70th week.

Yes, of Course Christ was the WORD.  He became a baby. How much of the Tanakh did He know at 1 year old? You do understand, I hope, that Christ laid aside His Godly attributes to become a man. So as a man, He was no longer all knowing. For example, He did NOT KNOW who touched Him in the crowd. For us to guess what He knew and what He did not know as a man would be silly.

So IF Daniel gave us the time of His death, you should have no problem showing is the verse and the words?

What you propose is to remove the entirety of Christ MINISTRY and crucifixion completely out of picture and then try and place it somewhere at a time between the 69th and 70th week and not in the 70th week 

Exactly! That is what Daniel does! All Daniel tells us is that AFTER the 69 weeks He is cut off.

Your logical fails  because the angel said the events of verse 24 would occur during the seventy weeks.

Your logic fails because the 70th week is future and so is at least one of those things listed.

and to make an end of sins

Sorry, but sin still exists and is being increased daily.

to bring in everlasting righteousness

It has not happened yet....just as the 70th week has not happened yet.

It does not say end of 69....After is not equal to at the end of.

Right: Daniel did not tell us HOW LONG after the end of the 69th week the Missiah would be cut off.  How you think you know when Daniel does not tell us amazes me.

Why, must Daniel continually repeat things for you? Are you unable to stay in context of Dan 9:24?

I got 24: why don't you get 27?

False again, the goal of the seventy sevens prophecy is intensely Messianic,  

So you are disagreeing with Daniel:  ²⁴ “Seventy ‘sevens’^[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city

Again daniel 11 does not have messianic overtones, where as Daniel 9 does you are comparing apples to peaches.

So not only do you not understand verse 27, you also don't understand types.

There is repeated reference in Scripture to a 3.5 year period of time yet future. On the other hand there is an absolute lack of any prophetic discussions with any of the apostles and with Christ which points to a seven year period of time or any signal of its beginning.

For once I can almost agree with you.  I guess it is not easy to see, for you have missed it. What do you imagine is happening in Rev. Chapters 8 through 11?  Daniel tells us, and Revelation shows us.  You still imagine you can divided a half apple and still end up with halves! It is simply impossible.

Christ makes no reference to any antichrist signing or breaking a covenant with many. As that was fulfilled by Christ.

That is your theory. You cannot prove it. You have been trying for days. There were many things in the Daniel  that Jesus did not cover: for example, He never once mentioned Antiochus.

Edited February 17, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

No covenant that was made thats for sure

 

 

yes sin does exist but lets not pretend that the crucifixion doesnt make an end to sin.....you do realise Christ had to start somewhere?

It is the first half of the 70th week, for sure.

God is an all consuming fire, and in the end, all sin will be consumed. This did not happen when Christ died and rose again. It will not happen until we get the new heaven and earth. Yes, of course Christ began the process.  But just as there is a difference between animal sacrifices stopping and the need for animal sacrifices eliminated, there is a difference in sin eliminated forever and dying for the sins of the entire world.

Edited February 17, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, of Course Christ was the WORD.  He because a baby. How much of the Tanakh did He know at 1 year old? You do understand, I hope, that Christ laid aside His Godly attributes to become a man. So as a man, He was no longer all knowing. For example, He did NOT KNOW who touched Him in the crowd. For us to guess what He knew and what He did not know as a man would be silly.

Again please stop painting Christ ignorant of scripture, who quoted scripture after scripture throughout the entire NT including Daniel, hence Christ quoting Daniel when the apostles askes for the time of Christs return, as well as making prophecies of the future.

You making out that Christ has never heard of Daniels seventy seven. Who even understands it.

This is some desperate stuff from you.

It only seems that way because you don't understand. OF COURSE Christ quoted Daniel. But He did not read into Daniel what is NOT THERE, as you have done. He probably did know that Daniel told of the time of His coming.  He certainly knew He was to be "cut off."

I hope you remember, He said that He never spoke unless He heard the Father speak, which means, everything we have written that He spoke came from the Father. I hope you understand, while Jesus laid aside His attribute of being all knowing, God the Father was still all knowing.

By the way, the desperation is all coming from your side of this discussion.

Edited February 17, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

 

Quote

 So IF Daniel gave us the time of His death, you should have no problem showing is the verse and the words?

Daniel 9:26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. 

Good. This says "after." Daniel did not tell us HOW LONG after. You imagine that part.

Daniel 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

This is a non sequitur. Daniel began a new subject.

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

Which is confirmed by Zech 11:10- 12

10I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.

Hence the bible also accurately predicts the timing of Christs death

Wow. Your ad libbing abilities amaze me. This DOES tell us how much Judas was paid to betray Christ. How you get timing out of this amazes me.  No one else does.

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

Which is also confirmed by Christ who made a covenant with many. And by the actions of Christ who split Isaiah 61 in half...prophetically showing the timing of His death.

This is also confirmed that no where does Christ prophecy an antichrist making a covenant with many nor do we find a single apostle like John showing an antichrist making a covenant.

All in an attempt to come to the false conclusion that Rev 7 multitiudes is the raptured church. Where the grammar "coming out" of the tribulation is a present tense showing repeated action a continual action. So unless the rapture doctrine was changed from being a single event to God cherry picking saints over an extended period of time to heaven.....then your theory is devoid of any scriptual support.

You have manufactured scripture to such a degree all to force fot aome fanciful idea Rev 7 multitide is the rapture. That even the conclusion shows that you wrong.

See this is the danger of not establishing doctrine out of the mouth of two or three witnessss....which you blantaly disregarded.

Again a non sequitur: Christ did indeed make a covenant, but not with many: His covenant was with "ALL:"

2 Corinthians 5:19

that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

(I know that by His blood He established the New Covenant that was "poured out for many." But the covenant with many in Daniel is a different covenant. Just because the word "many" is found on both verses does not make them the same covenant. This covenant with many in Daniel must be related to the daily sacrifices, for it is the daily sacrifices that are stopped. This CANNOT be Christ's death and resurrection Daniel is talking about, because the daily Sacrifices did NOT STOP.)

For WHO? For THE WORLD!  You are confusing covenants. And this covenant Christ made will stand forever. Why would ANYONE think a covenant that is broken in the middle of the week (after only 3 1/2 years) would be made my Christ? His covenants are forever.   ( I know the word "broken" is not found in this verse: but the general consensus in the Christian world is that this covenant is broken at the midpoint of the week when the man of sin turned Beast stops the daily sacrifices and goes after the woman as seen in Rev. 12.

by the actions of Christ who split Isaiah 61 in half...prophetically showing the timing of His death.

Sorry, but Jesus was not "showing the time of His death" in Isaiah. Again you are reading what is not there: imagination running wild.

61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

² To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Someone in that day could wonder, if they were astute and knew this scripture, why Jesus did not finish the verse. However, all they could surmise is that the day of vengeance was NOT being fulfilled at that time. Sorry, no timing of Christ's death shown here. Your imagination again. Today, looking back, we know WHY He did not finish the sentence: the day of vengeance is still future to us today, and was certainly NOT fulfilled that day Christ spoke those words.

Those dreaded preconceived glasses are most certainly hindering your memory: I proved with scripture after scripture that your theory of  "present tense showing repeated action a continual action" is faulty. All those verses went right over your head, because of preconceived glasses.  Verse after verse shows this Greek work being used for a ONE TIME coming, which fits perfectly with the rapture.  If you wish to see the rapture somewhere else, that is fine; but you will be wrong. When Paul and John agree, that is good proof.  I understand very well that preconceived glasses blind people to the true intent of scripture. May I suggest you take them off, wipe the slate clean, so to speak, and study 1 Thes. 5 until you understand it? And after that, 2 Thes. 2.

If you disagree, prove by scripture that the large crowd, too large to number, is NOT the raptured church.

By the way, I have not used "two or three" scriptures to base my doctrine on: I use ALL the end times scriptures. This is why I know immediately when a theory is suspect: it does not fit all the end times scriptures.  For example, when I see someone rearranging Revelation to fit their theories, I know immediately that their theory is faulty. 

In truth, you have not come up with one shred of evidence to prove your theories. I am talking about scripture, line upon line, rightly divided.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Im going to give you some advice....if you concentrated less on trying to insult people and actually focused more on the scriptures...we might actually get some where.

What Zech tells us, that God plans to cut the messiah and break his covenant, which is exactly what Daniel 9:26 & 27 predicts.

If you do not understand hebrew writing styles then I would suggest go here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11902-parallelism-in-hebrew-poetry

Perhaps gather actual evidence to confront me next time with.

 

My friend, the insults have been on your side, not mine. Indeed, God DID end the Old Covenant by the death of the Testator.

Hebrews 9:17

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

You are sadly mistaken if you attempt to understand Revelation by "Hebrew writing styles." The best way to understand Revelation is with a close relationship with the Author, the Holy Spirit.

 

One thing I have concluded: it is very doubtful that you and I will ever agree. It is those pesky preconceived glasses.

[Mike 2]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

God did more than have Christ crucified. He also had the covenant broken

 

Zech 11:10

took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant 

 

You understand how that completely discredits you theory?

 

 

 

 

Of cause because John and Daniel were americans

 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Mike 2