RIP

[Neighbor]

Let me  elaborate some please; my own local body of Christ spends some time adding  commentary to the word of God as we do expository preaching and listening.

It appears to me that we just lose Roman Catholics as they hear the word, if we also bash them with it at the same time.

 Personally I think we have greater gain to be found in presenting the gospel of Jesus, and letting that  sit upon the hearer's mind for them to consider, and let  them  then later ask of the Holy Spirit is that true? For us to act  as kind of a lynch mob being accuser, jury,  and judge, over the hearer is unseemly for it shows we do not respect the ability of the Holy Spirit; instead  finding in our own wisdom that  we are to rush in, much as though we are some avenging angel on a mission.

No one accepts well  such an approach when it conflicts with all they have been taught and all that they might have experienced. So why not allow the Holy Spirit His agency? And, His specific call to the elect to come at the time and place of God's own choosing, not  necessarily ours?

Cannot God save the Roman Catholic even in  their flawed condition, just as He might save the occasional "Protestant", and even the  born again saint? Why not stay to the command to go into all the world  sharing the gospel of Jesus so that many may be presented as mature in the Lord, and leave the rest to the proper agency- that of the Holy Spirit, to turn about individuals one by one by one?

Even Paul a man of much authority was brilliantly kind in his manner, and patient in the ability of the Spirit, when He said- I see that you are a religious people by the many statues you have to your gods....  He then told of God. I don't remember his spending a lot of time bashing upon the lesser god's. He simply told of a higher truth, the gospel of Jesus. Reference Acts 17

[Guest BacKaran]

14 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Because the thought of death can be frightening, people through the years have invented some platitudes with which to comfort themselves. When someone dies, we often hear unbiblical statements such as “She’s an angel now” and “God needed another angel in heaven”; sometimes, we hear the bromide “He’s in a better place,” spoken with no thought that he might actually be in a worse place. People who never have time for God suddenly grow religious at a funeral. They try to assure themselves and others that, regardless of the deceased’s relationship with God while on earth, he or she is in heaven now. But we must not ignore what Scripture teaches.

The Bible is clear that physical death is not the end (Hebrews 9:27; John 3:16–18). Jesus taught that there are only two options for every human being: heaven or hell (Matthew 10:28; 25:46; Mark 9:43;). He gave a vivid picture of those two options in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, found in Luke 16:19–31. In this account, the rich man, who had given no thought of God during his earthly life, went to hell when he died. Lazarus, who possessed nothing on earth but a pure heart, was taken to paradise. Hell is described as a place of torment (verse 23), not a place of rest. According to Scripture, a person who dies without Christ is not “resting in peace” (see John 3:18). “‘There is no peace,’ says my God, ‘for the wicked’” (Isaiah 57:21).

However, death is entirely different for those who are “in Christ” (Romans 8:1; 1 Corinthians 1:30). First Thessalonians 4:13 reminds us that, while it is natural to grieve for loved ones who have died, we do not need to grieve for believers in Christ as though we will never see them again. There is hope mixed with the sorrow. The Bible often refers to the dead in Christ as “those who are asleep” (1 Corinthians 15:20; Acts 13:36; 1 Thessalonians 5:10). The biblical writers used sleep as a metaphor because death for a Christian is only temporary. Paul said that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8). Those receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior are with Him in paradise when they die (Luke 23:43). So, after death Christians do enter a “rest,” and it is “peaceful.” However, is saying, “Rest in peace,” biblical?

The problem with saying, “Rest in peace,” is that it is framed as a prayer. In Latin, it is literally “May he begin to rest in peace.” Of course, praying for the dead is unbiblical. At the moment of death, a person’s fate is sealed. The Bible never teaches or even suggests that we should pray on behalf of those who have passed away. Saying, “Rest in peace,” writing “RIP,” and other forms of prayers for the dead are rooted in Catholic tradition, not the Word of God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/rest-in-peace-RIP.html

I am bold enough to say gently to someone who says oh they are an angel watching us now.

How do you know, it that what the Bible says?

And either they will think before responding or they will write you off as a prideful Christian.

It doesn't matter how nice you respond to someone, if you're asking them to think about what they are saying, they usually get angry because they are lost and do not want to or be changed.

When my husband died, I used it as a witnessing tool. Oh you're doing so will considering....

No, God is lifting me up, there's nothing I'm doing, it's all God.

And here I am years later doing well because of God, not because of anything I have done. That's the love of God living in us so others may see Him and His light. ?

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by BacKaran

[Jewels7]

I think we are prideful to imagine God is constrained in his authority and power to do, by only what is contained in the Bible. 

Scholars know that the Bible was authored by over 40 different people. It was canonized by councils of people. God did not take his finger, and even the male pronoun isn't proper to apply to what we are told God is, a spirit, and write on parchment his own words. The first act of faith the faithful exercise is to believe the men responsible for compiling what is today's Bible when they say, we wrote this but it really wasn't us. It was God who inspired us to write what is there. 

If someone in their grief is comforted by believing their departed loved one and especially if it is a little baby or child, is in Heaven as one of God's angels watching over that family, how can we say that's not possible? As if we know God would never do. 

Rest in peace implies soul sleep as far as I can tell. People believe in that. Some people don't. It's all defensible in the Bible whatever you believe of what happens after life. Soul sleep or a return to the God spirit that gave life in the first place. 

What does, "God have mercy", say when offered to console a grieving person? Especially if that departed loved one was a Christian. God have mercy on them because they need it after the life wherein they were told to believe they were saved by God's grace? 

It's grief. People grieve differently and they're comforted in unique ways. Are we really going to break down according to our preferences and understanding about scripture that which works to console others when we're at a funeral? Are we going to dare preach or debate someone weeping as if their heart is breaking into pieces? 

 

 

[Guest BacKaran]

I would be talking of an adult funeral, I do believe God brings His children to heaven and of course, if I don't know the survivor well enough to witness to, I'd say nothing.

Depends on the situation and relationship but I would try to be a witness.

[Willa]

1 hour ago, Jewels7 said:

It's grief. People grieve differently and they're comforted in unique ways. Are we really going to break down according to our preferences and understanding about scripture that which works to console others when we're at a funeral? Are we going to dare preach or debate someone weeping as if their heart is breaking into pieces? 

 

People at funerals are usually in shock.  Seeing the body often helps them come to grips with the reality.  It will be another month before the loss sets in.

But at this time they are irritable from lack of sleep and their emotions are raw.  They are very vulnerable and easily offended by even the best intended words.  On TV they usually say "I am so sorry for your loss".  It shows compassion without being judgmental.  I usually tell them that if they ever need to talk, I will be glad to listen.  Often people just need a friend who will listen.  

After my father in law's death they had a family meeting.  I was not invited.  But apparently they discussed there feelings about him and where he might have ended up.  He had been abusive toward his children and used them selfishly. He hated Christians.  In fact he was a bigot who hated most nationalities, ethnic groups and religions---an Archy Bunker.  He loved money.  His funeral was conducted by Elks and Shriners lodges, so his judgement was based on people passing ranks in the lodges and paying their dues..  Some people think God judges a person fit for heaven if the good outweighs the bad!.   My husband hopes his dad had repented before his sudden death and he misses him because he was his father.  But we don't miss his controlling presence in our lives.  Many people may miss the companionship of an unbeliever.  It does help to remember the good times.  

Often it is due to the death of an unbeliever that Christians grab onto false teaching such as universal salvation.  They desperately wish that person had accepted Christ and even become angry at God.  Some even reject their faith.  Our God is a just God and we don't know the hidden secrets of their hearts.  We can't judge them righteously as God can. 

I believe that Christians miss those true Christians who have gone to be with Christ even more than unbelievers.  Christians tend to be less selfish and more supportive of those they encounter.  They have usually been salt and light in a dark world.  So they may have been hated by unbelievers but are very missed by believers.  The bible says that the apostles mourned and grieved deeply over the death of Stephen.  On the other hand some Christians have fed the stereotype of being legalistic, self righteous and judgmental and are remembered bitterly.  Only God knows if they were truly saved.  Others may remember them in a better light, having a different perspective.  

Certainly all are grief stricken at the death of a child, more so since their hopes and dreams for that child are gone.  This fact often splits up marriages.  There may be a lot of blame, often toward medical staff or parents blaming each other.  Some never resolve this and learn to forgive or face reality.  We are relieved and rejoice for people who were Christians that they are no longer suffering, knowing that they are now filled with the peace and joy of being in Christ's presence.  But there is usually a huge hole left in our lives that no one can really fill.  Sometimes people use the loss for good, to try to make a positive impact on the world.  This is the best outcome of our grief.

 

Psa 34:15  ESV The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous and his ears toward their cry.

Psa 34:16  The face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth.

Psa 34:17  When the righteous cry for help, the LORD hears and delivers them out of all their troubles.

Psa 34:18  The LORD is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.

Psa 34:19  Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all.

[Neighbor]

Okay, as a funeral director, and a cemeterian, I  had much experience with grief and the grieving. Denial of loss takes on a few forms, and all fail leaving the grieving person in worse shape for the denial.

 The most common denial is the cremation without funeral nor any place of burial nor remembrance. That does not work out well for the grieving person. Second is the newer stylish  Christian "life celebration ceremony" with it's trappings  of memories  on a display table, happy testimonies and a food eating gathering. There all better now we met we celebrated we ate. Nope doesn't cut it the pain still hurts deeply and everyone has scattered, thinking all better let's move on and pretend we don't see the greiving anymore.

There is need absolute need to define and mark the grief in order to handle it and to also go through the suffering of it without being crushed into  dismal dispair.

 I have met with, countless numbers of times, the closest person to the deceased long after they have  cremated and disposed of their beloveds cremains, either at sea or by scattering on land. They come back into the funeral home or cemetery office building and sit. I would see them and they knew not what to ask  or say, they just knew they had a need to be at the last place of some contract and be with someone that  has some experience in deaths. They simply had not been able to organize their grief into something they could work and handle. So it was overwhelming them.

I would share of their "problem" and offer possible solutions for their consideration, such as making some remembrance item, selecting a place of remembrance and having them engrave some marking at that place. Didn't neeed to be a cemetery, could be anywhere. But often I did present a very affordable way to have a  marker, a memorial, placed on  a "partial" burial site at very little expense.  They would then have a dedication service, and again when the marker arrived, an unveiling dedication and remembrance service, something they could lead themselves if they wished.

The whole process  is borrowed from the customs of orthodox Jews where a specific calendar of events  is followed, tearing of clothes, wearing of an arm band, visiting a place of remembrance, and finally at one year the unveiling of a marker, And that  formally ends the time of grieving.  The process allowed a rather full satisfaction and recovery.

So the point is; let individuals grieve! Do not make everything all happy talk. It is the worst days of their lives. It is not happy happy happy, I'm just a happy fool for Jesus, I do not tear up, I do not cry, for all is better. It isn't better, not for the person surviving. It flat out hurts!- Acknowledge the hurt in the surviver, hold them  in person as well as in prayer, and do not leave them to have to pretend all is well. It is not well until the loss is acknowledged and the heart's painful grief is satisfied by a process of  orgainized grieving, something that has order, a beginning, a middle, and importantly an end. All so that it may be endured. And then if allowed the time, survived.