Is Maryology Idolatry?

[woundeddog]

1 hour ago, Wayne222 said:

 But of course Mary was not sinless. You can be mistaken in this point and still be saved

if a person is "venerating" really worshipping Mary-- It is very doubt full they are saved

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

On 2017-04-02 at 7:37 PM, Spock said:

1. Immaculate Conception- Mary also born without sin just like Jesus

2. Was without sin - just like Jesus

3. Perpetual virginity- never had sex

4. Assumption- did not die, but ascended into Heaven 

5. Co- Mediatrix - Jesus and Mary both mediate man's sin

6. Mary receives prayer because she is tender and compassionate and God listens to her and always gives her what she asks. 

 I believe this is idolatry which as you know violates the First Commandment. So my questions stem from that assumption: 

 

1. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was applied to Mary at the moment of conception. Mary too needed a saviour. 

2. Mary was sinless BUT NOT like Jesus. Jesus is God and Mary is a creature. 

3. Mary never had sex, the brothers and sisters of Christ were cousins. Need to take all of scripture into account and not just a few verses. 

4. Enoch and Elijah were both assumed into heaven. It's not unreasonable to believe that Mary would also be. 

5. Co-Mediatrix doesn't mean Mary mediates sins with Jesus. 

6. All those in heaven offer up the prayers of those on earth. Not just Mary. 

Of your six points not once was worship mentioned. Yes it is idolatry to worship Mary. Catholics do not worship Mary, that would be the sin of idolatry. 

[Spock]

5 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

1. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was applied to Mary at the moment of conception. Mary too needed a saviour. 

2. Mary was sinless BUT NOT like Jesus. Jesus is God and Mary is a creature. 

3. Mary never had sex, the brothers and sisters of Christ were cousins. Need to take all of scripture into account and not just a few verses. 

4. Enoch and Elijah were both assumed into heaven. It's not unreasonable to believe that Mary would also be. 

5. Co-Mediatrix doesn't mean Mary mediates sins with Jesus. 

6. All those in heaven offer up the prayers of those on earth. Not just Mary. 

Of your six points not once was worship mentioned. Yes it is idolatry to worship Mary. Catholics do not worship Mary, that would be the sin of idolatry. 

Do they not pray to Mary?  Who prays to dead people? Only God can answer prayer. Mary has no influence on any of your prayers. She has no idea about any of that stuff. 

There are 55 prayers on their rosary. 50 are to Mary; 5 to God. "Hail Mary, full of grace....."

i don't think you know your church's dogma. It's better that way. 

Cousins!  Lol. Do you really buy that stuff?  There is a Greek word for cousin, but it wasn't used. The Greek work used That was translated "brothers" was adelphos and was  used 343 times in the NT. Why don't you get a concordance and look up each occurrence and you tell me if cousin is the better translation. 

Im glad to hear you see worship of Mary as idolatry, but do you pray to her? Do you believe these apparitions have anything to do with Mary? If you believe Mary was totally sinless, you elevate her to the level of Jesus, a God. Do you want me to cite a Catholic writing regarding Co-Mediatrix for you? I will if that will help you understand even what that church promotes. 

Here is one from some Pope:

Pope Leo XIII: “The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.” (Iucunda Semper Expectatione, n. 2)

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spock

[Guest shiloh357]

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Is Maryology Idolatry?

There is no such thing as "Maryology."   The Bible does not have a theology of Mary.   There is Christology, Soterioloty, Hamartiology, Angelogy, Eschatology, but there is no such thing as Maryology.   It is a complete fabrication by the RCC.

There are no types and shadows of Mary, types and shadows always pertain to Christ in redemption history.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Dear Brother Spockster....lol

   Well,I am going to quote you.....because I do agree 100% & of course,it is my personal Convictions same as it is yours......

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We all know God knows the heart, not man, right? Here is what I think, with no Biblical basis to support this so please don't quote me or use it for your own: if God looks at my brother's heart and sees he loves Mary (first love) more than Jesus, I have a bad feeling for him.  However, if God sees Christ is his first love, not Mary, this may get him an invitation to the PARTY! 

It's all a matter of the HEART.....in my eyes,and YES indeed....ONLY GOD Knows a mans heart                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

[Reinitin]

It is idolatry and divination. The sorcery and idolity practices of Rome melded with the diciples withness of the truth. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Reinitin
Did say what i was trying to comunicate.

[Guest shiloh357]

6 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

1. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was applied to Mary at the moment of conception. Mary too needed a saviour. 

Where is that in the Bible?

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2. Mary was sinless BUT NOT like Jesus. Jesus is God and Mary is a creature. 

How can there be difference versions of sinlessness and where is that in the Bible?

 

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3. Mary never had sex, the brothers and sisters of Christ were cousins. Need to take all of scripture into account and not just a few verses. 

That is not true, actually.  The word Adelphos is not used to refer to cousins.   Adelphos means "from the womb"  which indicates that they were from the same mother as Jesus was in Mark 3:32.   The word use for "cousin" in Greek is suggenes.  Pretty sure that ancient people knew the difference between someone's brothers and sisters and someone's cousins.  

In Mark 6:3 the word for Jesus' sisters is adelphe and again indicates someone from the same womb as Jesus, precluding them from being his cousins.   If they were Jesus' cousin, there was a word in Greek for that.

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4. Enoch and Elijah were both assumed into heaven. It's not unreasonable to believe that Mary would also be. 

Yeah, so since it seems reasonable, we'll just make something up and declare it doctrine???   Doesn't have to be in the Bible, it just has to sound reasonable to us???   That is why the RCC is joke and not the funny kind.

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5. Co-Mediatrix doesn't mean Mary mediates sins with Jesus. 

Doesn't matter.  Still not biblical. 

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6. All those in heaven offer up the prayers of those on earth. Not just Mary. 

Bible doesn't say that all, at least not about dead saints.   Jesus is our advocate and is the one who is praying for us, our Great High Priest and we are commanded to go directly and confidently to the throne grace.   We have direct access to God.  No where in the Bible are we commanded to ask Mary to pray for us.

 

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Of your six points not once was worship mentioned. Yes it is idolatry to worship Mary. Catholics do not worship Mary, that would be the sin of idolatry. 

Yes, they do.   They pray for Mary's guidance and protection and even pray to her for healing.   Pope John Paul II credited Mary for his healing after he was shot.    He had a sign over his door that was a prayer directed to Mary which said, "Totally yours." 

They go to Mary for far more than for her pray for them.   That is worship.   They are seeking her for the things only God can provide.    It is nothing but idolatry.   One can never be cradle to grave devout Roman Catholic and be a biblical, authentic New Testament Christian.

[gdemoss]

On 4/2/2017 at 7:37 PM, Spock said:

I hope this is the right forum and is an allowable topic to discuss. I really would appreciate brotherly or sisterly dialog. I have had a long discussion with my Catholic brother about Mary this weekend and am walking away somewhat frustrated.  He kind of surprised me by telling me he has gone back to his previous beliefs regarding Mary: 

1. Immaculate Conception- Mary also born without sin just like Jesus

2. Was without sin - just like Jesus

3. Perpetual virginity- never had sex

4. Assumption- did not die, but ascended into Heaven 

5. Co- Mediatrix - Jesus and Mary both mediate man's sin

6. Mary receives prayer because she is tender and compassionate and God listens to her and always gives her what she asks. 

 I believe this is idolatry which as you know violates the First Commandment. So my questions stem from that assumption: 

1. Do you believe this veneration of Mary is idolatry?

2. If so, is it possible to both believe on Jesus for his atonement, and also believe in all this stuff regarding Mary, and still be saved?  In other words, can you be both a God worshipper and an idol worshipper simultaneously? 

I hope this isn't too confusing. I'm planning my next strategy in our next dialog and I need to have a firm grasp on how I view my brother's standing. 

Thanks,

Spock

edit: one more thing, please do not use this thread to "argue" the merits of these six Catholic doctrines. I'm not interested in discussing that. If you feel the need to discuss that, start your own thread. Thank you. 

I would like to address the concept of the immaculate conception.

Adam was created perfect in thw likeness amd image of God.

Adam fell through sin and lost that perfect image and likeness.

Adam's children all bore his fallen likeness and image.

Christ being in the form of God was placed in the womb of Mary to be born without sin.  He was not of Adam.  

In order for Mary to be wothout sin Mary would also have had to predate the fall.

 

[Fidelibus]

14 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Hi Mr. Spock  .      Just wanted to ask what you think about Mary being sinless as stated in question 1.   This is a very serious statement as this title is only attributed to God.  Only Adam and Eve alone held that status before  they sinned in the garden.     So, this teaching is essentially equating  Mary to the status of Jesus, who is God.  This simply cannot be, as there is only one God and Lord.

Are angels sinless ???

Romans 3     King James Version (KJV)

²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Hi warrior12, like you, and before my converting to the Catholic Church, I too used this passage to prove Mary sinned. However, after futher study I came to see that Rom.3:23 does not say that Mary ever sinned. 

 

In closing warrior12, I'd like to ask you or any other non-Catholic that uses this passage to prove Mary sinned......... Do you seek God?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

Where is that in the Bible?

Can you show me where the bible says everything has to be in the bible?

 

 

I thought you had me on ignore!? Kinda surprised you haven't commented on one of my posts sooner. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Judas Machabeus