Jump to content
IGNORED

Is Maryology Idolatry?


Spock

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  21
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,573
  • Content Per Day:  0.52
  • Reputation:   723
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/10/2015
  • Status:  Offline

16 hours ago, Spock said:

I hope this is the right forum and is an allowable topic to discuss. I really would appreciate brotherly or sisterly dialog. I have had a long discussion with my Catholic brother about Mary this weekend and am walking away somewhat frustrated.  He kind of surprised me by telling me he has gone back to his previous beliefs regarding Mary: 

1. Immaculate Conception- Mary also born without sin just like Jesus

2. Was without sin - just like Jesus

3. Perpetual virginity- never had sex

4. Assumption- did not die, but ascended into Heaven 

5. Co- Mediatrix - Jesus and Mary both mediate man's sin

6. Mary receives prayer because she is tender and compassionate and God listens to her and always gives her what she asks. 

 I believe this is idolatry which as you know violates the First Commandment. So my questions stem from that assumption: 

1. Do you believe this veneration of Mary is idolatry?

2. If so, is it possible to both believe on Jesus for his atonement, and also believe in all this stuff regarding Mary, and still be saved?  In other words, can you be both a God worshipper and an idol worshipper simultaneously? 

I hope this isn't too confusing. I'm planning my next strategy in our next dialog and I need to have a firm grasp on how I view my brother's standing. 

Thanks,

Spock

edit: one more thing, please do not use this thread to "argue" the merits of these six Catholic doctrines. I'm not interested in discussing that. If you feel the need to discuss that, start your own thread. Thank you. 

Live Long and Prosper in Christ :P

Immaculate Conception? No. Only Jesus was immaculately conceived.

Mary wouldn't need a Saviour if she was without sin

Luke 1:47 | And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Perpetual virginity? No. She had other kids

Matthew 13:55 | Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Matthew 27:56 | Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mark 6:3 | Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Her Assumption? No. That was something adapted from pagan traditions. There is not one peep about such nonsense in the bible.

Co Mediatrix. Equally pagan 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mary receives prayer? And God gives her what she asks? God's will alone is sovereign and no dead saints hear prayer.

John 14:13 | And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:14 | If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. Plenty clear here. Do not pray to the dead, or pray to the Father in any other name.

This veneration of Mary is absolutely idolatry

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,239
  • Content Per Day:  0.86
  • Reputation:   1,686
  • Days Won:  6
  • Joined:  12/26/2013
  • Status:  Offline

1 hour ago, ravindran said:

Hello Spock. Every point you have mentioned, comes from tradition and not Word of God. That is the problem. Bible does not confirm any of these things. Going by Bible, maryology is idolatry.

regarding your other questions, I truly believe there are many Catholics who are truly saved and we would see them in heaven. Because Salvation is not based on how good a life we live. Salvation is from God. No one is perfect. And we all have our own idols.

Thank you for this response. This is exactly what I was looking for. Yeah! 

I will be honest here- your answer is what I believe or maybe what I want to believe. However, in my study of what constitutes IDOLATRY and what does think of people who are IDOLATERS often, it is not good.  The one brother mentioned in Revelation 21 that there is no place for "an idolater" in the new kingdom. What does that mean?  

Someone else mentioned believing all these things about Mary is not really worshipping her. Is that true? How many millions of people pray "to Mary" for her grace?  How is this not worship when you are praying to her?  

Who can receive prayer? God, right?  Praying to a dead person, be it Mary or some saint, seems like is replacing what is meant for only God. Do you agree with this?  So, how do you think God feels about this? The first commandment says he is a jealous God and that thou shall have no false idols before you. 

Not to mention the countless millions of people running to and fro throughout the world visiting places where supposedly Mary showed up.  What do you call this? Seems like worship to me. How do you think God in Heaven looking down is processing all of this? 

So, back to brother. You feel this should not affect his salvation....I hope you are right. John McArthur doesn't feel that way, but to him, just about everything is black and white with very little gray in between. Even though I don't agree with every inference/interpretation/application he makes, I do know he is a man who cares only about what the Bible says.  I listen to what he says very closely. 

But, I do like what you said too, and it seems to make sense to me- in a way, we all have our idols that perhaps we use to replace God. It's just not as black and white as McArthur sees it, and there is the rub. 

Thanks again,

spock

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,239
  • Content Per Day:  0.86
  • Reputation:   1,686
  • Days Won:  6
  • Joined:  12/26/2013
  • Status:  Offline

7 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Live Long and Prosper in Christ :P

Immaculate Conception? No. Only Jesus was immaculately conceived.

Mary wouldn't need a Saviour if she was without sin

Luke 1:47 | And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Perpetual virginity? No. She had other kids

Matthew 13:55 | Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Matthew 27:56 | Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mark 6:3 | Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Her Assumption? No. That was something adapted from pagan traditions. There is not one peep about such nonsense in the bible.

Co Mediatrix. Equally pagan 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mary receives prayer? And God gives her what she asks? God's will alone is sovereign and no dead saints hear prayer.

John 14:13 | And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:14 | If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. Plenty clear here. Do not pray to the dead, or pray to the Father in any other name.

This veneration of Mary is absolutely idolatry

Thanks for your response, but take it one step further for me please.  

Can you both be a God worshipper and an idol worshipper at the same time.  In other words, I trust Jesus for his sacrifice, but I also pray to Mary, etc. and look to her for strength and comfort?  My brother even said that to me this weekend....."I feel Mary's comfort every night while I am asleep!" 

I said, isn't that the role of the Holy Spirit, the comforter? He said, "nope, I know it is the blessed mother providing this comfort!"

"Really Fred! She's dead!"  

"No she isn't brother, she is the Queen of Heaven!" 

Sigh!   But at least he still says he believes in only Christ for his atonement. Is this good enough to get him into the Kingdom?  He doesn't look to me like he is going to repent from his Mary worship any time soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  21
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,573
  • Content Per Day:  0.52
  • Reputation:   723
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/10/2015
  • Status:  Offline

Just now, Spock said:

Can you both be a God worshipper and an idol worshipper at the same time

No you cannot for the bible does say one must worship God in spirit and in truth

John 4:24 | God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Mars Hill
  • Followers:  12
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  7,689
  • Content Per Day:  2.41
  • Reputation:   2
  • Days Won:  20
  • Joined:  06/30/2015
  • Status:  Offline

And the "feelings" of comfort from a dead or sleeping* person is demonic, directly contrary to GOD'S WORD.

i.e. much more dangerous than just deceptive -  the person is subject to demons.

 

*'sleeping' - as when Y'SHUA said to the women (or his disciples) of some who died : "Don't cry" or "Don't worry" ,  "they are just sleeping..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  21
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,573
  • Content Per Day:  0.52
  • Reputation:   723
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/10/2015
  • Status:  Offline

7 minutes ago, Spock said:

Is this good enough to get him into the Kingdom?

No it isn't. You cannot serve two masters.

You either believe in the truth fully, uninhibited by man's lying traditions or you don't.

there will be many who call themselves Christian but because they believe the lies of men Jesus will tell them Be gone from me ye workers of iniquity

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  11
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  496
  • Content Per Day:  0.14
  • Reputation:   398
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/18/2014
  • Status:  Offline

15 minutes ago, Spock said:

Thank you for this response. This is exactly what I was looking for. Yeah! 

I will be honest here- your answer is what I believe or maybe what I want to believe. However, in my study of what constitutes IDOLATRY and what does think of people who are IDOLATERS often, it is not good.  The one brother mentioned in Revelation 21 that there is no place for "an idolater" in the new kingdom. What does that mean?  

Someone else mentioned believing all these things about Mary is not really worshipping her. Is that true? How many millions of people pray "to Mary" for her grace?  How is this not worship when you are praying to her?  

Who can receive prayer? God, right?  Praying to a dead person, be it Mary or some saint, seems like is replacing what is meant for only God. Do you agree with this?  So, how do you think God feels about this? The first commandment says he is a jealous God and that thou shall have no false idols before you. 

Not to mention the countless millions of people running to and fro throughout the world visiting places where supposedly Mary showed up.  What do you call this? Seems like worship to me. How do you think God in Heaven looking down is processing all of this? 

So, back to brother. You feel this should not affect his salvation....I hope you are right. John McArthur doesn't feel that way, but to him, just about everything is black and white with very little gray in between. Even though I don't agree with every inference/interpretation/application he makes, I do know he is a man who cares only about what the Bible says.  I listen to what he says very closely. 

But, I do like what you said too, and it seems to make sense to me- in a way, we all have our idols that perhaps we use to replace God. It's just not as black and white as McArthur sees it, and there is the rub. 

Thanks again,

spock

 

I see lot of self answered questions :) You are right, there is no place in heaven for idolaters. Similarly, there is no place in heaven for any sinner. Because no unholy thing can be in the presence of God. When it says there is no place for such people, it means what they are identified by. Every believer sins. Everyone is a sinner. But God does not see our sins, instead righteousness imputed through Jesus Christ. That is exactly the same reason I believe there are many Catholics who are truly saved and will spend eternity with us!

I love John MacArthur, wonderful preacher and very passionate about Word of God. I do disagree with him on many areas and this would be one of them. There is no harm in that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  11
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  496
  • Content Per Day:  0.14
  • Reputation:   398
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/18/2014
  • Status:  Offline

10 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

No it isn't. You cannot serve two masters.

You either believe in the truth fully, uninhibited by man's lying traditions or you don't.

there will be many who call themselves Christian but because they believe the lies of men Jesus will tell them Be gone from me ye workers of iniquity

As per Arminians, many Calvinists are wrong when it comes to Salvation. They think Calvinists believe in OSAS, but they can lose their salvation anytime. Nothing is guaranteed

As per Calvinists, many Arminians are wrong when it comes to Salvation. They think Arminians believe salvation is part because of what they did. And what they did does not matter and they are probably not truly regenerated.

As per Protestants, Catholics are not saved because they believe in traditions outside of Word of God

As per Catholics, Protestants are not saved because they believe only in half truth.

You see the trend here? We can add more denominations here. There is only one way to heaven, that is through Jesus Christ. Faith on Jesus Christ and the Cross. There is no question Catholic church drives away people from true Gospel message. It does not mean, anyone who claims to be Catholic can ever be saved. Just my humble opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,239
  • Content Per Day:  0.86
  • Reputation:   1,686
  • Days Won:  6
  • Joined:  12/26/2013
  • Status:  Offline

Angels4u,

" I know that all that Mary worship is idolotry.. 

I believe only God knows the hear and is our Judge,we can never say if somebody who does believe in Jesus and accept Him as his Savior is lost ,we're in no position to judge..

I hope this will help you Spock?"

 

yes it does angel. I was 98% certain Mary veneration was IDOLATRY but now I am 100% certain it is.

However, your second statement that it is only up to God, who knows the heart, to judge ones faith is probably the safest position for me to take.  I know John McArthur feels very strongly that Catholics who hold to this Mary veneration are NOT believers in Christ, but I don't feel as confident in saying that.

If my brother says he trusts in only Christ's sacrifice for his sins, I probably should not be quick to say his Mary veneration has negated his faith/testimony. I know it is not easy to say this, but I guess it is possible to be both a God worshipper and an idol worshipper simulateously. God can figure all that out, not me. But to be honest, I feel very uncomfortable saying that. 

Yes, you did help. Just talking about this is helping me because that long conversation I had with my brother was intense. He reminded me that Pope Pius IX in 1854 said "anyone who doesn't believe these doctrines regarding Mary is cursed and will be damned."  (Naturally my response was pretty cutting, "Do you think I care about what some dead Pope thinks about me or Mother Mary?" ) 

So, here I am telling my brother, "your idolatry may prevent you from entering the kingdom..." while he is telling me, "your lack of belief in the Blessed Mother Mary may keep you from entering the Kimgdom...." 

wow! Crazy!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  21
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,573
  • Content Per Day:  0.52
  • Reputation:   723
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/10/2015
  • Status:  Offline

9 minutes ago, ravindran said:

They think Calvinists believe in OSAS, but they can lose their salvation anytime. Nothing is guaranteed

No you cannot lose your salvation. There are some who point to passages like....

1 Timothy 1:20 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

.....and assume that means that one can lose their salvation. But that is not so. Christians can fall into sin and walk away from the faith but God punishes them (as shown in the above passage) even to the point of death if necessary but that does not mean they lose their salvation.

We are PROMISED eternal life. To deny this by saying we can lose our salvation is to suggest God is a liar or capricious. At worst it shows a lack of understanding of scripture.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html

I should add here that when I say Christian I am not talking about people who call themselves Christian but really aren't, say, Roman Catholics , JWs, Mormons, or whomever. I am speaking of tried and true Christians, truly saved in Christ who aren't part of any of these religious cults but because of the weakness of the flesh, have fallen away for whatever reason

Edited by TheMatrixHasU71
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...