Is Maryology Idolatry?

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

 

You said yourself (and educated me) that the babies blood and mothers blood don't touch. So Adams sin is not passed on by the blood.

Does scripture say Jesus's human nature was different than ours?

i don't know the answer to that question.  

Hi Judas,

The fact that the mother`s blood does not touch the baby`s blood shows that Jesus was not effected by Mary. However you seem to forget that to have a baby you must have DNA from both parents which includes the blood. Thus Mary would have passed on Adam`s blood line if she gave the blood DNA. However God made Jesus` blood, & thus the need for complete separation from the mother`s blood during the baby forming. 

Yes Jesus` nature was/is different from ours. I gave the two descriptions. And wonder of wonders we, the believers have been given the wonderful promise that we may be partakers of the divine nature.

`...called us by His own glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great & precious promises, that through these  you may be partakers of the divine nature....` (2 Peter 1: 3 & 4)

Marilyn.

[TheMatrixHasU71]

22 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I believe that when God created Adam, Adam was full of Gods grace. He was made perfect. Adam if he hadn't eaten the apple he would have lived forever. 

No we are born without that grace and without that grace we are fallen. 

 

You said to say someone is sinless is putting them in the same level as Jesus. So I think it's a valid question. Before Adam sinned he was sinless. 

That doesnt count, for Adam hadnt FALLEN yet......ANYBODY born with a fallen nature as Mary was, can and will sin. Adam wasnt CREATED fallen. Though he was created in the earthly flesh he was born with the innocence of a newborn baby.

And he still fell. 

Romans 5:14 

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death reigned over Mary too because she was just as fallen as the rest of us

Edited April 13, 2017 by TheMatrixHasU71

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

On 2017-04-12 at 6:57 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Judas,

So I see you are saying that Mary passed on to the Lord a sinless body which would live forever & not die, yet we see the Lord, tired, suffering, tortured, & finally dying. Thus He had a human body that had the consequences of the fall, & so Mary was not perfect.

Marilyn.

Are you saying Jesus had a fallen body? A fallen body would have to have sin otherwise a fallen body could be sinless. 

So are you saying Jesus had a fallen sinless body or a sinful fallen body. Please explain. You can't have the consequences of the fall with being fallen. 

[Marilyn C]

Just now, Judas Machabeus said:

Are you saying Jesus had a fallen body? A fallen body would have to have sin otherwise a fallen body could be sinless. 

So are you saying Jesus had a fallen sinless body or a sinful fallen body. Please explain. You can't have the consequences of the fall with being fallen. 

Hi Judas,

I`m saying that Jesus had a human body that could get tired, suffer, be tortured & maimed till death, (when the Lord gave up His spirit). The body is not sinful but the nature of man is -envy, murder, strife, proud, unfaithful etc  Christ`s divine nature was/is faithful, compassionate, full of mercy & grace, longsuffering etc.

Our bodies are of the dust, a natural body & will be sown and then raised a spiritual body, (like Christ`s that can be recognised but with heavenly attributes).

Marilyn.

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

On 2017-04-12 at 1:45 PM, shiloh357 said:

How do you know it was because of grace he was perfect?  How was he "full of grace?"   Grace does not perfect us.   So that is a misuse of the biblical term.

I'm not sure I understand how grace can not perfect us? Without God grace we can not do anything. It's because of Gods grace we are able to reject sin, help the poor, feed the hungry.  The more you co-operate with Gods grace and grow in his love the more capacity you have for his grace.  This is how we grow in our relationship with God. 

So I don't understand what you mean by Gods grace doesn't perfect us. Is Gods grace somehow deficient in someway? I think the deficiency lies in us and not God. So I believe that Gods grace can perfect us, but is us that refuse to fully submit to it and we get distracted and lead astray by sin. 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

9 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Judas,

I`m saying that Jesus had a human body that could get tired, suffer, be tortured & maimed till death, (when the Lord gave up His spirit). The body is not sinful but the nature of man is -envy, murder, strife, proud, unfaithful etc  Christ`s divine nature was/is faithful, compassionate, full of mercy & grace, longsuffering etc.

Our bodies are of the dust, a natural body & will be sown and then raised a spiritual body, (like Christ`s that can be recognised but with heavenly attributes).

Marilyn.

 

K, gotcha. 

Human nature is sinful. Can human nature ever become so that it is not sinful? I'm think at the end of time when we are resurrected? We'll be body and soul and I am thinking our human nature will be sinless?

so what makes our human nature in heaven sinless and sinful while on earth?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Judas Machabeus said:

K, gotcha. 

Human nature is sinful. Can human nature ever become so that it is not sinful? I'm think at the end of time when we are resurrected? We'll be body and soul and I am thinking our human nature will be sinless?

so what makes our human nature in heaven sinless and sinful while on earth?

That`s what I said Judas, `The body is not sinful but the nature of man is -envy, murder, strife, proud, unfaithful etc` 

It was the Gnostics that thought the human body sinful, but it is not. as we both agree it is the human nature that is sinful.

I think you are confusing the words `body & nature.`

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

10 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I'm not sure I understand how grace can not perfect us?

In the Bible, grace serves two functions:    First, grace is God's unmerited, undeserved favor granted to us.  It is something we cannot earn, or be good enough to receive.  It is given to us freely when we deserve the exact opposite.  This is the grace for salvation (Rom. 3:24—4:6; 11:6; Acts. 15:11;  2 Cor. 8:9; Eph. 1:7; 2:8-9; 2 Thess. 2:16; Tit. 2:11; 3:4-7; Heb. 2:9; 4:16).   Second, grace is the stamina to obey and serve God and live the Christian life.  (Rom. 1:5; 12:3,6; 15:15; 1 Co. 3:10; 2 Co. 1:12; 8:1-2; 9:8; 12:9; Ga. 2:9; Eph. 3:7,8; 4:7; Heb. 12:28)

Nowhere in Scripture is grace a perfecting agent.   The perfecting agent in Scripture is Jesus finished work on the cross: 

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.  (Heb 10:11-14)

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Without God grace we can not do anything. It's because of Gods grace we are able to reject sin, help the poor, feed the hungry.  The more you co-operate with Gods grace and grow in his love the more capacity you have for his grace.  This is how we grow in our relationship with God. 

Yes, but that is not how the term grace is used in referencing Adam as full of grace or Mary as full of grace.  Grace is not something we can be filled with.  And the Bible does not reference Christians in that way.   Grace is something we receive, not something are filled with by God.   We are filled with the Holy Spirit, or filled with the fruits of righteousness, etc.  The  phrase "filled with"  or "full of"  in the New Testament refers to something  that we are abounding in.  It often refers to something that is complete.   But that phrase is not used in connection to grace when applied to followers of Jesus.  

Adam was perfect at first, because Adam was created without the stain of sin. 

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So I don't understand what you mean by Gods grace doesn't perfect us. Is Gods grace somehow deficient in someway?

Grace isn't designed to perfect us.  It's not deficient if it doesn't perfect us, any more than a hammer is deficient because it doesn't chop down a tree.   Grace's role is not as a perfecting agent.  It is God's free gift of unmerited favor and the stamina to be obedient.  Jesus shed blood and finished work on the cross is what perfects us.

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So I believe that Gods grace can perfect us, but is us that refuse to fully submit to it and we get distracted and lead astray by sin. 

Your belief is not based on the truth of Scripture, but on an incorrect understanding of the nature and function of grace.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Second, grace is the stamina to obey and serve God and live the Christian life.  (Rom. 1:5; 12:3,6; 15:15; 1 Co. 3:10; 2 Co. 1:12; 8:1-2; 9:8; 12:9; Ga. 2:9; Eph. 3:7,8; 4:7; Heb. 12:28)

This is what I'm talking about. Adam was made perfect, he was not deficient in any way. 

Since his fall we are deficient, we are born with out that sanctifying grace. Our nature is ordered towards sin.

When a new Christian becomes a member of the body of Christ they receive that first grace you mentioned. The saving grace. They are a new person, but they are not perfect. They still sin, but as they build that relationship with Jesus and surrender more of themselves to Christ they are able to receive more grace and as they receive more grace they can be be more obedient to Gods will and have more stamina to resist temptation.  

Stamina is something you build up and work on. So I would argue that the only way to build up is by Gods grace. And the more stamina you get the more of Gods grace you get. Because it's only by Gods grace that you can do anything?

A new Christian isn't going to have a full and complete relationship with Christ or have a full understanding of Jesus. So do these things come by the Christian own works or by Gods grace? I would argue that it's Gods grace, and as the Christians' relationship and knowledge grows so does the grace God gives them. 

And thank you for your well thought out and articulate respondes. I do appreciate it. Thank you. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Judas Machabeus
Missed a "y" went from the to they

[Guest shiloh357]

31 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

This is what I'm talking about. Adam was made perfect, he was not deficient in any way. 

Yes, but that is not being "full of grace,"  is my point.

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Since his fall we are deficient, we are born with out that sanctifying grace. Our nature is ordered towards sin.

Again, there is no such thing as sanctifying grace.  Grace does not sanctify us.

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When a new Christian becomes a member of the body of Christ they receive that first grace you mentioned. The saving grace. They are a new person, but they are not perfect. They still sin, but as they build that relationship with Jesus and surrender more of themselves to Christ they are able to receive more grace and as they receive more grace they can be be more obedient to Gods will and have more stamina to resist temptation.  

Well, in Scripture it isn't about having more or less grace, per se.   It is our experience of God's grace we find either in abundance or in lack.  The more we seek to be obedient and follow the Lord, the more of His grace we experience.   There is only one measure of grace given to us.  It's the same for everyone.

But your statement is basically correct. 

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Stamina is something you build up and work on. So I would argue that the only way to build up is by Gods grace. And the more stamina you get the more of Gods grace you get. Because it's only by Gods grace that you can do anything?

Grace is the stamina given by God.  It's not something we can work on by grace.   It's still His free gift.  Grace is not like a muscle we can work out and make stronger.    Grace is God's ability, not our own.

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A new Christian isn't going to have a full and complete relationship with Christ or have a full understanding of Jesus.

More accurately, they will not have the full experience of everything that it means to be in relationship with Jesus, nor will their understanding of Jesus be complete, either. 

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So do these things come by the Christian own works or by Gods grace? I would argue that it's Gods grace, and as the Christians' relationship and knowledge grows so does the grace God gives them. 

And that is all true, but that is not what perfects us.  We are on a sanctifying process to become more like Jesus in our daily lives, but we fully perfected before God when we are born again.  It's Holy Spirit within us who is helping to conform us more and more into the image of Christ.