Is Maryology Idolatry?

[TheMatrixHasU71]

13 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

So God can give mortal man the ability to raise someone from the dead BUT can't give the ability to receive thousands of prayer requests?

interesting

Raising the dead is still up to God alone, not us. We can pray over the dead but we cannot raise them. It is by the sovereign will of God to allow this or not. 

Receiving prayer requests however is still a purview of God alone not man

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

4 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Likewise the angels and elders in heaven may be aware of the prayers of us still living and they deliver them to God but they are for God's eyes only. They cannot intercede for us in any way. They cannot hear our prayers or answer them.

This is your opinion and not scriptural. In revelations there's a book with seven seals and no one is worthy to open the book but the lamb

but there are no seals on the bowls and if you've ever been (you might have I don't know) to a service with insence, it floats up for all to see.... again disproving its for Gods eyes only. 

[Fidei Defensor]

4 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

This is your opinion and not scriptural. In revelations there's a book with seven seals and no one is worthy to open the book but the lamb

but there are no seals on the bowls and if you've ever been (you might have I don't know) to a service with insence, it floats up for all to see.... again disproving its for Gods eyes only. 

I think incense in Revelation is more of symbolic metaphor to explain that God sees our prayers, I don't think its actual incense in this case.

As for incense used in the liturgy, I have experienced both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox variations. I often find incense is very potent and makes people cough, but it is endearing that the priest (in Orthodoxy at least) when he waves the censur is covering the believers in the incense as sign that our prayers are going to the Lord, and it is symbol of honor towards us, because we are made in His image (Genesis 1:27).

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

16 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I think incense in Revelation is more of symbolic metaphor to explain that God sees our prayers, I don't think its actual incense in this case

I agree that it's more symbolic than literal. My point is that the imagery that this produces is something visible to all those present. So by Matrix saying it's for Gods eyes only does not fit scriputre. 

[Fidei Defensor]

38 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I agree that it's more symbolic than literal. My point is that the imagery that this produces is something visible to all those present. So by Matrix saying it's for Gods eyes only does not fit scripture. 

From what I see in Scripture, there definitely is angels seeing the prayers and elders:

"The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand," (Revelation 8:4)

Then there is where elders and Cherubim,

"And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people." (Revelation 5:8).

 

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

For me it boils down to two simple questions. Are those in heaven members of the body of Christ. And can they hear our prayers.

Relevation shows us they are not only aware of our prayer but also offer them up to the alter of the Lamb. 

There is plenty of scriputre that supports praying for each other. So if those in heaven are members of the Body of Christ than they would not stop praying for us. Scripture doesn't tell us that we are ever to stop praying for each other. 

 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

25 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

For me it boils down to two simple questions. Are those in heaven members of the body of Christ. And can they hear our prayers.

Relevation shows us they are not only aware of our prayer but also offer them up to the alter of the Lamb. 

There is plenty of scriputre that supports praying for each other. So if those in heaven are members of the Body of Christ than they would not stop praying for us. Scripture doesn't tell us that we are ever to stop praying for each other. 

 

 

Hey Judas, can you share some of Bible verses about those in heaven praying for us? I am curious.

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My major concern about being concerned about if the dead pray for us or vice versa is that it takes our eyes of Jesus (Hebrews 12:2) and antichrist actually doesn't mean against Christ, it means to replace Christ (Matthew 24:24) in our hearts, worship, and focus.

Then there are verses in the Pentateuch or Torah which describe contacting the dead as a sin (Deuteronomy 8:10-11, Leviticus 19:11, 1 Chronicles 10:13-14), and while this does not fall into direct contact, it is awfully close in same vein of thinking, and I stick to "Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:22).

The counter argument is there is no more death (1 Corinthians 15:55-57), that Jesus is Resurrection and Life and all who abide in Him aren't dead (John 11:25-26, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 2:14), and even Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus in Transfiguration (Matthew 17) but neither Elijah or Moses talked to the Apostles, only to Jesus who is God (Colossians 2:9, Titus 2:13). However, this is not totally an accurate counter argument, because death is not completely eradicated until Jesus throws it in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Besides that the point of there being no more death, is to say there is no more separation between us and God, and death does not hold us anymore just as it didn't hold Jesus, it isn't a free license to talk to dead, pray to them, or receive their prayers. And why would we want prayers of saints, when we can have prayers of Jesus, "Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us," (Romans 8:34), "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them," (Hebrews 7:25), "Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted," (Hebrews 2:18), and "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin," (Hebrews 4:15), Why would we want those who were weak, former sinners now in heaven pray for us? when we can have Jesus who is God and Man (Colossians 2:9, 1 John 4:1-3), who knows our afflictions and struggles, but has the power of God pray for us. It would be like if someone is given a choice, talk with God directly or go through a third party?

I just think we should stay away from something not communicated to us by Christ or Apostles as an essential, a focus, and main part of the Christian walk. We are suppose to be communing with Christ (having relationship with him), preaching the Gospel (Matthew 28:19, Matthew 24:14), and operating in gifts God has given us to serve His Kingdom.
 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

8 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Hey Judas, can you share some of Bible verses about those in heaven praying for us? I am curious.

The argument of going directly to Jesus is a straw man. Christians ask each other for prayers all the time. So why do that if you can just go straight to Jesus?

i've posted scripture that supports my position. 

1 Those in heaven are members of the body of Jesus

2 Out prayers are collected and offer to the Lamb

3 We are called to pray for one another

4 We are not violating the OT law of speaking with the dead. We are asking the living in Christ for prayers and NOT a conversation.

Mark 12:26-27

26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, ' I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 
27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

We are asking them to pray for us in the same way we ask for those in the pew beside us to pray for us.

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

9 hours ago, Yowm said:

Hebrews 7:25 KJV
[25] Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

I'm not sure what your point is. All prayers and intercession go through Jesus. 

As for 1 Tim 2:5, I've address this several times. It's a straw man argument because all Christian ask for prayers. So why do that is you can go directly to Jesus?

 

James 5:16

16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

There is no one more righteous than those in heaven. Asking them to join their prayers to yours as you pray to Jesus is a good and powerful thing.

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

6 minutes ago, Yowm said:

With Mary and the other saints gone on there is no invitation to come, no promise that they personally hear us, no assurance that they can answer our requests. Why settle for 2nd best when we now have access through His blood to the Eternal Son Himself?

So why ask those around you to pray for you? Why not go straight to Jesus?

when "praying to the Saints" what you are doing is asking them to pray for you. It's no different than asking Joe from Church to pray for you. All this talk that we are replacing Jesus makes no sense. IF that was truely the case than all Christians better stop asking for prayers. Because your only 2nd best... you should be going directly to Jesus. 

Cheers