Fidei Defensor Posted June 3, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Relic has many connotations: rel·ic ˈrelik/ noun noun: relic; plural noun: relics an object surviving from an earlier time, especially one of historical or sentimental interest. synonyms: artifact, historical object, ancient object, antiquity, antique "a Viking relic" a part of a deceased holy person's body or belongings kept as an object of reverence. synonyms: remains, corpse, bones; cadaver "a saint's relics" an object, custom, or belief that has survived from an earlier time but is now outmoded. "individualized computer programming and time-sharing would become expensive relics" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 On 2017-06-01 at 8:50 PM, Fidei Defensor said: But I met a person once carrying a relic around and asking people if they wanted to touch it and be blessed by it, and this made my skin crawl. I do not believe relics have power, Only the Divine Trinity has power. Yes and No. Relics do have power. Elisha's bones brought a man back to life. A tunic (probably the best example of how a relic works) cure a hemoraging woman, in Acts we see hankirchefs being sent out. So relics do have power. The hemoraging woman is probably the best example of how a relic works. Jesus didn't turn around and say to her she was heal. His humanity didn't even know who it was that got healed. Lets see what scriputre says Mark 5:25-34New American Standard Bible (NASB) 25 A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years, 26 and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse—27 after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His [a]cloak. 28 For she thought, “If I just touch His garments, I will [c]get well.” 29 Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction. 30 Immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My garments?” 31 And His disciples said to Him, “You see the crowd pressing in on You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’” 32 And He looked around to see the woman who had done this. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, aware of what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. 34 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has [d]made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction.” https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+5%3A25-34&version=NASB 1. She recognized that a relic has the power to heal. (Bolded and underlined) 2. The next sentence varifies what she believed. 3. We see that the cloak was the vessel that was used and it was Jesus's divinity that was the power. (Second unlined portion) 4. It was her faith in Jesus Christ that allowed her to be healed. (Third unlined portion) So relics do have the power to heal, but that power does not come from the relic itself. It comes from Jesus Christ and through the persons faith in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 3, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said: Yes and No. Relics do have power. Elisha's bones brought a man back to life. A tunic (probably the best example of how a relic works) cure a hemoraging woman, in Acts we see hankirchefs being sent out. So relics do have power. The hemoraging woman is probably the best example of how a relic works. Jesus didn't turn around and say to her she was heal. His humanity didn't even know who it was that got healed. Lets see what scriputre says Mark 5:25-34New American Standard Bible (NASB) 25 A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years, 26 and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse—27 after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His [a]cloak. 28 For she thought, “If I just touch His garments, I will [c]get well.” 29 Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction. 30 Immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My garments?” 31 And His disciples said to Him, “You see the crowd pressing in on You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’” 32 And He looked around to see the woman who had done this. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, aware of what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. 34 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has [d]made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction.” https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+5%3A25-34&version=NASB 1. She recognized that a relic has the power to heal. (Bolded and underlined) 2. The next sentence varifies what she believed. 3. We see that the cloak was the vessel that was used and it was Jesus's divinity that was the power. (Second unlined portion) 4. It was her faith in Jesus Christ that allowed her to be healed. (Third unlined portion) So relics do have the power to heal, but that power does not come from the relic itself. It comes from Jesus Christ and through the persons faith in him. Well I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. I just don't believe in relics having power (to transmit merit, spiritual grace, and etc). I think they have power (impact on emotions and feelings) when people see the old heirlooms that were used by the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 11 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said: Well I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. I just don't believe in relics having power (to transmit merit, spiritual grace, and etc). I think they have power (impact on emotions and feelings) when people see the old heirlooms that were used by the Lord. The hemoraging woman would disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 3, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said: The hemoraging woman would disagree with you. Actually she isn't alive to disagree with me. She is dead and in heaven presumably with Christ, unless she fell away from faith (Hebrews 6:3-6). Edited June 3, 2017 by Fidei Defensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 3, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said: The hemoraging woman would disagree with you. Actually it was Jesus and faith that healed her, "And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone out from him, immediately turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my garments?” 31 And his disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, ‘Who touched me?’” 32 And he looked around to see who had done it. 33 But the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him and told him the whole truth. 34 And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.” (Mark 5:24-33). The emphasis by Jesus is "your faith has made you well, and be healed." When she touched the garments and said if she could just touch them, was that she believed if that was all she could grab hold of to be healed by Jesus it would suffice, just as Centurion had a totally different fiath, "When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant,[a] ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel[b] have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment." (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus commends the Centurion with having greater faith. Its not about the relics, its about the relationship with Jesus. The woman only had enough faith to touch his garment to be healed, the Centurion believed that if Jesus merely spoke healing, it would be done. But the healer is Jesus, not the cloth or words alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 20 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said: Its not about the relics, its about the relationship with Jesus. The woman only had enough faith to touch his garment to be healed, the Centurion believed that if Jesus merely spoke healing, it would be done. But the healer is Jesus, not the cloth or words alone. You lost me here. The Centurion was praised for his faith. He said all Jesus had to do was command it and it would be done. The faith was in the authority Jesus had. He knew that Jesus had the power to heal just by speaking it. The last thing I said in my post was: 2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said: So relics do have the power to heal, but that power does not come from the relic itself. It comes from Jesus Christ and through the persons faith in him. I said the power does NOT come from the relic itself. It comes from Jesus and the persons faith. As for the woman, I would argue that her faith in Jesus was so strong that she knew his power to heal was so strong that even if she was only able to touch his cloak that would be enough. And she was right. She was healed. Jesus didn't turn around and heal her. His power flowed out of him without him doing anything. Het faith in Jesus healed her. She touched the cloak and she was healed. If what you are saying is true and her faith was only in the healing power of the cloak than she was rewarded for a false faith. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by her faith was only enough to touch his cloak. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 3, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Faith only enough to touch the cloak, means she had only the kind of faith that needs to touch the Lord, unlike Centurion who didn't need any physical element, an example being the Laying on of hands by Elders. The Woman's faith was in Jesus, she had to touch him, and she decided because of crowds, that if she could just touch hem of His robe, she would be healed (the robe being attatched to Jesus). She isn't trusting for healing from robe or garment, but wants to touch Jesus and receive his Healing Power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Judas Machabeus said: You lost me here. The Centurion was praised for his faith. He said all Jesus had to do was command it and it would be done. The faith was in the authority Jesus had. He knew that Jesus had the power to heal just by speaking it. The last thing I said in my post was: I said the power does NOT come from the relic itself. It comes from Jesus and the persons faith. As for the woman, I would argue that her faith in Jesus was so strong that she knew his power to heal was so strong that even if she was only able to touch his cloak that would be enough. And she was right. She was healed. Jesus didn't turn around and heal her. His power flowed out of him without him doing anything. Het faith in Jesus healed her. She touched the cloak and she was healed. If what you are saying is true and her faith was only in the healing power of the cloak than she was rewarded for a false faith. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by her faith was only enough to touch his cloak. Cheers Which is basically an argument against relics, not for them. One can simply go to Jesus in faith for what he or she needs. No relics are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 4, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 The biggest rebuttal is Paul's handkerchiefs, "God did extraordinary miracles through the hands of Paul. so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. Now there were some itinerant Jewish exorcists who tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those with evil spirits. They would say, “I bind you by Jesus, whom Paul proclaims. Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this, Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but you, who are you? 16Then the man with the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. The attack was so violent that they ran out of the house, naked and wounded." (Acts 19:11-17). Granted the healing and dilverance came from Jesus, and Paul was an instrument. But this scenario is quite extraordinary is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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