Jesus' Return

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

I'm not discussing the modern days jews interpretation versus the traditional view.....I'm discussing what the Talmud teaches. 

Shalom, inchrist.

I know that. You didn't understand what I was saying. Let me make it clear to you with Paul's words:

Romans 3:4
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV

I take little stock in ANYONE'S commentary! EVERY MAN is a liar compared to God's Word! "Sola Scriptura!"

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Here is the problem I have with such statements  it's "best not to rely upon the Talmud" (Jewish commentaries)

do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you

Is western eschatology superior? Are Christian endtimes commentaries far superior to that of the Talmud commentaries?

NEITHER the Talmud NOR western eschatology is "superior!" (And, that's a BAD usage of Romans 11, btw!)

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In fact let's test the inferiority of Jewish eschatology in the Talmud.

Firstly the Talmud is commentaries on Scripture. It is thoughts and expressions on understanding scripture. Where the commentators back themselves up with scripture with their understanding of scripture.

In other words, the Talmud, like western commentaries, are HUMAN "thoughts and expressions on understanding Scripture." This fact IMMEDIATELY makes them suspect and susceptible to HUMAN error!

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Background: Rosh HaShanah is referred to as Yom Teruah, the Day of the Sounding of the Shofar.

Actually, according to the Scriptures, it is the other way around. It is Yowm Truw`aah, the Day of Sounding the Shofar, that is now referred to as Ro'sh haShanah, the Head of the Year, when they made this day, one of the New Year's Days for Israel. (There are FOUR of them, y'know. There's the civil New Year's Day, 1 Tishrei; the New Year's Day for trees, 15 Shevat; the religious New Year's Day, 1 Nisan; and the New Year's Day for tithing cattle, 1 Elul.)

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ROSH HASHANAH: THEMES AND IDIOMS

1) Teshuvah (repentance) 
2) Rosh HaShanah (Head of the Year, Birthday of the World) 
3) Yom Teruah (the Day of the Awakening Blast [Feast of Trumpets) 
4) Yom HaDin (the Day of Judgment) 
5) HaMelech (the Coronation of the Messiah) 
6) Yom HaZikkaron (the Day of Remembrance or memorial) 
Messiah, Chevlai shel Mashiach) 
7) The opening of the gates 

8) Kiddushin/Nesu'in (the wedding ceremony) 

9) The resurrection of the dead (natza1) 
10) The last trump (shofar) 
11) Yom Hakeseh (the hidden day) 

Teruah in Hebrew (Strong's dictionary #8643) means: alarm, signal, shout (as if splitting the ears) or blast of war, alarm or joy. 

Thus this day is a day of an ear-splitting shout or alarm, the blasting sound of the shofar.

It is also referred to its other biblical name in Leviticus 23:24 as Zichron Teruah. In Hebrew means Mentioning Shout or Memorial Shout.

The problem with the list above is this: How many of these "themes and idioms" are Biblical? Where does the BIBLE say that this day is any of the above? Don't give me human commentary; give me SCRIPTURE!

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3 points to be considered:

1) Gods holy convocations
2) How did  Yom Teruah become associated with Judgement, heaven open and three groups of people? 
3) And can this be proven in the NT? 

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GODs Holy Convocation

Hebrew, the word convocation means miqra spoken as Mik-raw (Strong’s concordance number 4744). 

In Hebrew, this word means  

rehearsal . What does the word rehearsal mean? 

A Rehearsal is defined as an act of practicing in preparation for an event.

Rehearsal

Hardly a different take, the jews rehearse Yom Teruah every year.....but its clear you do not understand the eschatological significance of this rehearsal. 

Well, that's the modern, reduced meaning of "rehearsal"; however, the older definition, like that of the 1611 KJV, upon which Strong's Concordance was keyed, is...

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Definition of rehearse

rehearsed; rehearsing

transitive verb

1a :  to say again :  REPEAT
b :  to recite aloud in a formal manner

2:  to present an account of :  RELATE rehearse a familiar story

3:  to recount in order :  ENUMERATE rehearsed their demands

4a :  to give a REHEARSAL of
b :  to train or make proficient by rehearsal

5:  to perform or practice as if in a rehearsal

intransitive verb

:  to engage in a rehearsal

rehearser

 noun

 

Here's another source:

 

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-·hearsed′, -·hears′ing

1. to repeat aloud as heard or read; recite
2. to tell in detail; narrate or describe in sequence and at length
3. 1. to perform (a play, concert, etc.) for practice, in preparation for a public or formal performance
   2. to repeat or practice as if rehearsing: to rehearse an alibi
4. to drill or train (a person) by rehearsal

 

Origin of rehearse

Middle English rehercen ; from Old French rehercer, literally , to harrow again ; from re-, again + hercer, to harrow ; from herce, a harrow: see hearse

 

to rehearse a play, concert, etc.

Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/rehearse#fh8mjPjjCM34WAKw.99

 

It's better to go to the source language:

OT:4744 miqraa' (mik-raw'); from OT:7121; something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:
KJV - assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

OT:7121 qaaraa' (kaw-raw'); a primitive root [rather identical with OT:7122 through the idea of accosting a person met]; to call out to (i.e. properly, address by name, but used in a wide variety of applications):
KJV - bewray [self], that are bidden, call (for, forthself,, upon), cry (unto), (be) famous, guest, invite, mention, (give) name, preach, (make) proclaim (-ation), pronounce, publish, read, renowned, say.

OT:7122 qaaraa' (kaw-raw'); a primitive root: to encounter, whether accidentally or in a hostile manner:
KJV - befall, (by) chance, (cause to) come (upon), fall out, happen, meet.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, we're not talking about a "rehearsal" as if for a play; we're talking about a "rehearsal" in the sense of "reading something worth HEARING again!" It's REPEATING something important! The context of a word speaks volumes:

Nehemiah 8:8
8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading (bamiqraa').
KJV

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We first look at the OT

How does the Talmud associate Yom Teruah with judgement?

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout [YOM TERUAH] for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead." Isaiah 26:19

Shout = living

‘I am calling down a sword [JUDGEMENT] on all who live on the earth,’ declares the Lord Almighty...’The Lord will roar [YOM TERUAH] from on high; he will thunder from his holy dwelling and roar mightily [YOM TERUAH] against his land. He will shout [YOM TERUAH] like those who tread the grapes, shout [YOM TERUAH] against all who live on the earth.’” Jeremiah 25:29-30

Judgement = shout

 And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard [YOM TERUAH], And shall shew the lighting down of his arm, With the indignation of his anger [JUDGEMENT], And with the flame of a devouring fire, With scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

31  For through the voice of the Lord shall the 

Isaiah 30:30–31

Shout = Judgement

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain [YOM TERUAH]:

Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:

For the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; [JUDGEMENT]

2  A day of darkness and of gloominess,

A day of clouds and of thick darkness,

As the morning …Joel 2:1–2

Trumpets = Judgement

The great day of the Lord is near, It is near, and hasteth greatly, Even the voice of the day of the Lord [YOM TERUAH]: The mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15  That day is a day of wrath, [JUDGEMENT] A day of trouble and distress, A day of wasteness and desolation, A day of darkness and …Zephaniah 1:14–16 

Voice = Judgement

Hence when we look at the Talmud teaching we gain a better understand of how heaven is open and judgment comes into play

It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate. The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life; the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.29 The intermediate will go down to Gehinnom

Daniel 7:9-10

As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.” 

Reread the Talmud concerning 3 books http://juchre.org/talmud/rosh/rosh1.htm#16b

Said R. Abin, What text tells us this?

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.26 ‘Let them be blotted out from the book — this refers to the book of the wicked. ‘Of life — this is the book of the righteous. ‘And not be written with the righteous’ — this is the book of the intermediate. R. Nahman b. Isaac derives it from here: And if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written,27 ‘Blot me, I pray thee’ — this is the book of the wicked. ‘Out of thy book’ — this is the book of the righteous. ‘Which thou has written’ — this is the book of the intermediate.

The text these rabbis relied upon was from Moses, who asks to be "blotted out of the book" if God will not forgive the sins of the people. (See also Deut. 9:13) and in Psalm 51:3&2, David asks to have his sins blotted out. Psalm 69:29&28.

So the thought of being 3 books is derived from scripture.

Lastly we have the Talmud teaching who the intermediates are, that they are to go through the 10 days of Awe

Rosh Hashanah 17a

as it says, And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name and I will answer them.2 Of them, too, Hannah said, The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up.3 Beth Hillel, however, say: He that abounds in grace inclines [the scales] towards grace,4 and of them David said, I love that the Lord should hear my voice and my supplication,5 and on their behalf David composed the whole of the passage, I was brought low and he saved me.6

Quoting Zech 13:8&9

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Can The NT confirm what the Talmud teaches?

The Talmud teaches that on the day of Yom Teruah, the gates of heaven are opened, the heavenly court takes place and that three books are opened. That Judgement takes place and we have the resurrection and coronation of a King (Mishnah - Rosh Hashanah 4:5-6)

In the book of Revelation, the Bible shows exactly what the Talmud teaches 

On Yom Teruah being the last trumpet of the 7 month trumpets, Talmud teaches that heaven is open

“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet... Then God’s temple in heaven was opened...” Revelation 11:15-19 

Talmud teaches that Judgement begins on Yom Teruah

Revelation 11:18 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The Talmud teaches that the righteous are sealed for eternal life on Yom TERUAH

And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name...” Revelation 15:2 

The wicked who will be sealed for perdition - will be those who chose to align with the Antichrist and his new world order and took the “mark of the beast”:

“A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: ‘If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.’” Revelation 14:9-10 

The Talmud teaches that the intermediates who have ten days left to repent (10 days of awe)

Rev 2:8-11 and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. ( 10 days of awe)

Talmud teaches that a coronation of a king occurs on Yom TERUAH

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever. Rev 11:15-17

Talmud teaches there is a great shout

Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” rev 11:12

All of this is REALLY stretching the truth! Really? Comparing the Talmud to Revelation?! Are you meshuggah?! You're not keeping things in order and you are fisching for words that are enough "the same" to "fit" your hypothesis!

I've re-read the Talmud and I find most of it COMPLETE FABRICATION AND GARBAGE! Look at the two examples you gave above:

It has been taught:

Beth Shammai says,

There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment
28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate.

The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life;
the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.
29 The intermediate will go down to Gehinnom

First of all, "Gehinnom" is NOT "Sh'owl" or "Sheol." "Gei-Hinnom" is the Valley of Hinnowm, the valley outside Yerushalayim where the kings would set up their judgment seats so that sentencing could be carried out immediately.

Second, there is NO SUCH THING as "the thoroughly righteous!" Have you learned NOTHING from Scripture?

Isaiah 64:6-7
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
KJV

Paul quoted this passage to the Romans:

Romans 3:9-20
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
KJV

This is the FUNDAMENTAL FLAW with the Talmud! They've Yeshua` gave a parable about this very mentality in Luke 18:

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

Some believe that if their good deeds outweigh their bad deeds, they will be accepted by God. God looks inside them and says, "WHAT 'good deeds?!' There's no 'good deeds' in here!" It's the humble who realize that they have NOTHING that would appeal to a PERFECT God and cry out, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner." And, it is THEY who are justified by God. These are the ones who have been "born again." (John 3:3, 7)

 

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2017 at 0:07 PM, missmuffet said:

That is right Jeff The Pretrib, midtrib and posttrib views are not a salvation issue. Time will tell.

If one or all of the above positions prove to be incorrect, then the teacher of that position does not speak from the Power of the Holy Spirit but from their own heart and mind.

A punishable offense jeopardizing one's salvation according to scripture.

2 Peter 2

New Revised Standard Version

False Prophets and Their Punishment

"1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Even so, many will follow their licentious ways, and because of these teachers[a] the way of truth will be maligned. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

Since pretrib, midtrib, and postrib cannot all be true at the same time at least one, or all three, are false teachings; by false teachers; who will be condemned and destroyed.

I would say its a salvation issue in the highest degree.

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2017 at 10:50 PM, missmuffet said:

I am not being unfair with anyone. I am just telling you what the Bible tells me.The world is full of "what ifs". I prefer to stay with what I believe. God bless

It's not what you don't know that gets you in trouble; It's what you think you know that just ain't so.

                                                                                                                                                     Mark Twain.

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2017 at 0:51 PM, MorningGlory said:

Being PreTrib myself, I don't believe we know, since we were not told, when the Lord will return.  We have only the 'signs' we were told to look for and, personally, I believe they are all out there right now.

Are we supposed to "believe what we believe" or are we to "believe what God wants us to believe"? 

I'm pretty sure when scripture tells us to 'believe" the context is the truth of Gods' word, not what we have taken pains to convince ourselves is true. Personal belief is meaningless in the context of the truth of God, unless that personal belief aligns with Gods truth. The Spirit infuses us with the truth of God and we adjust accordingly. We are never to wish a truth into existence because it molds God's truth into a comforting personal belief.

Our hope, belief, trust, awe, worship are in the established, tangible, and trustworthy House of the Most High God and the Lord Jesus; not in personal, subjective and insufficient world views.

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2017 at 1:02 PM, missmuffet said:

That is right. We do not know when Jesus will rapture the Church. The Bible tells us that we are not supposed to know. Dating setting is a huge no...no. But Christ's second coming could be predicted according to the Antichrist the MOB and the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments.

Not sure this is logically correct. Pretrib already predicts the 2nd coming as occurring before the Antichrist. There is no difference here. In either case neither the day or the hour can be known so the Day of the Lord is no more of less predictable before or after the rise of the beast.

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2017 at 10:50 PM, missmuffet said:

I am not being unfair with anyone. I am just telling you what the Bible tells me.The world is full of "what ifs". I prefer to stay with what I believe. God bless

Personal beliefs are great. They lead to a life void of objective truth.