When the blessings don't come

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, PlanetChee said:

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

Yup, that is one of the verses they use when they twist the meaning to preach the prosperity message.  

[walla299]

On 5/30/2017 at 8:31 AM, ricky said:

I have a question for those who espouse the "word of faith" movement aka the "Prosperty gospel". What happens when the financial blessings don't come, or the healing you have been believing in isn't there? How does that affect your faith in the sufficiency of Christ? Do you ever question your faith as a whole?

I was fortunate because the Lord led me away from that "WoF" stuff in the early 80's when some of those preaching that were getting popular. It sounded really good as a young believer, but the Spirit kept pointing out error. Then someone at the Bible centered church I was attending pointed out that it essentially put man at the center and made God a servant.

I've met many folks who got sucked up into that stuff - and then were angry and bitter at God - especially after the 2008 crash in the US. Many were afraid to admit their "blessings" were no longer coming, or lay-offs, no money, cars being repossessed, etc. Those that did were essentially told it was their fault and given no help at all by the "church" they had tithed to before. They were all but thrown out for that matter. I met many of these while going through a valley of my own and just trying to find another reason to stay sober at the time. Recovery meetings were quite the mission field since there were many "new" folks to witness to. What makes me say some of these folks were angry or bitter? More than one person bristled at the mere mention of Jesus or God. A couple threw a punch. So, yeah, there was some anger there.

Bottom line is that we're not guaranteed tomorrow. Or much of anything else. God does promise that He will walk with us through whatever comes. I'll be the first to admit that it is not a easy path to walk.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, PlanetChee said:

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

Hi PlanetChee,

That can sound like an open cheque book from God, however we need to see who Jesus was talking to, and for what purpose. Let me give an example. A man has a farm and is the father of a son. He tells his son that here is the cheque book for your needs on the farm. We see who the father is talking to and for what purpose.

Similarly, Jesus is talking to the disciples of Israel, and says that `whatever you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.` Obviously the disciples would not be asking for treasures on earth, but for their needs as they went about telling Israel of their Messiah.

We, the Body of Christ are NOT the centre of God`s word. It is not all about us, but for us to read and learn of Christ and HIS PURPOSES for Israel, the nations and ourselves

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Behold said:

 

Good point.

If i might be direct...

The reality is, "church" as we know it in our lifetime, with a shiny  building, a fancy alter, a high resolution praise group,  and a charming and manicured dictator behind a pulpit who is having to be one to try to keep all the other dictators down in the congregation, has very little to do with the type Christianity that Jesus > Paul = was trying to create us to be.

The fact is, God started it, and man ran with it, and you see the end result of everything that man touches....it becomes self centered self serving, "look at me"....."me, me, me, me, me,"""""""""..............>.

I have a few hero's of the faith, that are not found in the NT.

One is Francis of Assisi, and one is Rich Mullens the Contemporary Christian "singer" who died in '97.

The reason i admire them, (is not because of their theology, as im not a Catholic,), but its because i recognize that to truly be a disciple of Christ, you have to be willing to leave it all behind, and in fact, you would prefer to do so.

Every true believer, saved a few years, grounded in correct NT theology, should be ready to preach, pray, and die, ....24/7.

A true Disciple, in my view, can put their Cell, their Cable, their Laptop, their job, their position,  their home,  their family, and their personal ambition, = quickly and instantly aside if they feel the Lord just told them to "GO".

Early Christian's didnt live by 401-Ks or Saving's accounts, or 5 year plans, or "planning for retirement", as they didn't retire......they generally died doing the Lord's work.

Everyone here should wear out "Fox's Book of Martyr's", and find out what its really costs to be all you can be for Jesus The Christ.

Salvation Cost Jesus His LIFE....and Discipleship, will cost you YOURS.

My personal IQ regarding what it means to be a disciple, is to be sold out.......Is to wake up and you say...."Good morning Lord, what do you want me to do today"....and when you lay your head on the pillow or ground at night, the last thing you say is "Goodnight, Lord, Goodnight Father God".

And so, if this was easy, we'd all be doing it.....but, nevertheless, that is how i feel about Christian "service".

Thx for the conversation,

B

Hi Behold,

It is a pleasure to talk to you as I hear your heart. I do appreciate your candid picture of many of man`s organisations of today. However.....I do know from God`s word that the Lord the Head, is building and maturing His Body. There has been a great move over the past 10 - 15 years of believers leaving man`s organisations and meeting together in many and varied ways. They are not so obvious as they do not have a building to support, or a TV profile, however they are all over the world and growing everyday.

Be encouraged bro, the Lord is well able to continue His work, unseen by many, but obvious to local communities.

regards, Marilyn. 

[Neighbor]

As to whether I am  of the WOF thinking, no I am not-But I did know a family, whose child told me, and my daughter, that we would be rich like they are becoming in real estate if we joined the church they attended.

My daughter wanted to go to church with her. So I visited this "church". It's newest facilties were just about completed. There were a couple of crystal panes still left that could be purchased at a donation of some $100,000 each. Gee opporunity knocks; and twice it seems.

Yes it was Rev. "This is the day the Lord has made!" Robert Schuller, Mr. Possibilities Thinking himself.  (Somewhere around here I still have "his"  The Possibility Thinkers Bible. Anyway, the whole right side of the existing sanctuary  of "his" church parted, opening up to the drive-in, so the people in cars could see him prance in to the sanctuary  on his balcony, waving his arms majestically and shouting "THIS IS THE DAY THE LORD HAS MADE! It was AMAZING!

At the end of the presentation  we were invited to stay of course. A presentation on the church was made to 39 of us by a man and his wife, the man being introduced  by Rev. Schuller as his lieutenant. The wife- not introduced except as " and his wife".

We were told of the two remaining crystal windows available for purchase, and that we could tour the fourteen story  wedding chapel; but first he wanted to  know of our relative affluence. Seems even with the new facility about to open  the Schuller church was already going to be packed beyond capacity. And so, they needed and could accept  only a few monied people as new member candidates. The lieutenant said that the church  could not afford anymore ordinary waged workers. With that  opening  he asked, do we still want to tour and be considered for joining? It was AMAZING! We could go to the top of the wedding tower, up the elevator even if we were not  qualified to become the key new affluent members because we might want to purchase use of the wedding chapel. As we stood being cued up  for the elevator the lieutenant and his "wife" got into a terrible shouting argument. I think they broke up right there and then. It was AMAZING!

And of course, today the crystal cathedral is owned by the popedom, the Schuller financial empire having collapsed and the assets put up for sale in bankruptcy.

Somehow it seems fitting. And when I return to Santa Ana/ Garden Grove CA. I drive into the parking area of the  Crystal Cathedral now of Roman Catholicism, just to remind myself that even though there are charlatans selling God, He will still call out His own, and that not a one given to Jesus is lost by Jesus; man's follies not withstanding.

God has used many  "experiences" to prepare me for my own calling to my own repentance from my sin against Him. I stand confident in Him in spite of the numerous charlatans that roam earth doing their best to make God out to be a fraud as they bambozzle their fellow man.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Neighbor

[Behold]

16 hours ago, PlanetChee said:

I would think at the core of the WoF or Prosperity Gospel teaching that there is scripture to sustain it. And God's blessings reported in his word that sustains the belief that God would have us prosper and not perish for want.

 

The term "prosperity gospel" is actually a Satanic attempt to create and evolve as truth the false idea that money is not important and that Christians should not have any, and if they do, they are not spiritual.

The Fact is, God is all about prospering His Children, as a part of the "Abundant Life" that Jesus came to give us, = this actually includes the part where we LIVE HERE. (surprise).

On the flip side, there are ministers, especially on TV, who abuse the whole concept of giving and receiving, and they are in fact very out of balance, and probably some of them are not even saved, but are just fakirs who are working a grift.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Behold

[simplejeff]

No,  not often anyway - "prosperity gospel" online, widespread,  the description and exposing it shows clearly from Scripture that it 

is a false gospel, a very common accepted popular false gospel,  in many countries , including africa, not just the untied states. (posters from africa have posted the false gospel , not exposing it, but endorsing it, just like preachers and teachers and evangelists in the untied states and many many american posters).

The "prosperity gospel" is anathema, directly opposed to the Bible,  and is not part of YHWH'S Plan, Purpose and Salvation.

Much better to read "Foxes Book of Martyrs",  Revelation, Matthew, 1 Corinthians,  when seeking for TRUTH, JESUS, what is RIGHT.

Jesus said simply "Giving, not getting, is the Way; self-sacrifice..."(required)  ,  "Come to Me and learn how to live" ....... "I Know you don't know how" .....

[PlanetChee]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi PlanetChee,

That can sound like an open cheque book from God, however we need to see who Jesus was talking to, and for what purpose. Let me give an example. A man has a farm and is the father of a son. He tells his son that here is the cheque book for your needs on the farm. We see who the father is talking to and for what purpose.

Similarly, Jesus is talking to the disciples of Israel, and says that `whatever you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.` Obviously the disciples would not be asking for treasures on earth, but for their needs as they went about telling Israel of their Messiah.

We, the Body of Christ are NOT the centre of God`s word. It is not all about us, but for us to read and learn of Christ and HIS PURPOSES for Israel, the nations and ourselves.

regards, Marilyn.

I bolded your kind words to address what I wanted to speak to specifically. 

As sons and daughters of Christ our Lord's teachings certainly do make it appear we are the center of God's words of wisdom to us. We are alive redeemed and reborn as all peoples from all parts of this planet, sealed with God's Holy Spirit and with his laws written in our hearts so that they continue to apply as moral guideposts for us as we navigate this world where Satan roams like that hungry lion. 

His purposes for Israel are his own. As we are in Christ's hand God's purpose includes us as well. Meaning all Christians. Because we are all one in Christ no matter where we come from, no matter what gender we are. As we are told in his word.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, PlanetChee said:

I bolded your kind words to address what I wanted to speak to specifically. 

As sons and daughters of Christ our Lord's teachings certainly do make it appear we are the center of God's words of wisdom to us. We are alive redeemed and reborn as all peoples from all parts of this planet, sealed with God's Holy Spirit and with his laws written in our hearts so that they continue to apply as moral guideposts for us as we navigate this world where Satan roams like that hungry lion. 

His purposes for Israel are his own. As we are in Christ's hand God's purpose includes us as well. Meaning all Christians. Because we are all one in Christ no matter where we come from, no matter what gender we are. As we are told in his word.

Hi PlanetChee,

Good to talk on this important topic. This is what I said -

We, the Body of Christ are NOT the centre of God`s word. It is not all about us, but for us to read and learn of Christ and HIS PURPOSES for Israel, the nations and ourselves.

So let`s have a closer look to see whether we are the centre of God`s word or the Lord is.

`God....according to His good pleasure which He purposed in n the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and on earth - in Him.`(Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

`And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. `(Luke 24: 27)

So we see that God the Father has purposed His Son to be the centre of His word. We are to read His word to learn of Christ, His character, His ways and His purposes for the 3 groups - the Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations.

regards, Marilyn.

[PlanetChee]

Thank you.