The C0uncil 0f Trent

[OakWood]

3 hours ago, OldSchool2 said:

It wasn't that Luther had rebelled against his church, but that Pope Leo excommunicated him in 1521.

"Luther returned to Wittenberg in 1521, where the reform movement initiated by his writings had grown beyond his influence. It was no longer a purely theological cause; it had become political. Other leaders stepped up to lead the reform, and concurrently, the rebellion known as the Peasants' War was making its way across Germany...."

http://www.history.com/topics/martin-luther-and-the-95-theses

Almost a century later, these events culminated in the Thirty Years War, when Sweden, France, Spain and Austria all waged campaigns -- mostly on German soil -- that redrew the religious and political map of central Europe.

But he was only excommunicated because he rebelled. To the Vatican, any questioning of RCC doctrine is counted as rebellion.

[OldSchool2]

4 hours ago, OakWood said:

That's correct. It was the sale of indulges that really incensed Luther, and was the triggering point for his attempts to modify and reform the errors of Catholicism. However, after realising that he couldn't reform the church of Rome, he then rebelled against it.

Rebelled how as Lutheran had remained an Augustinian monk until he was excommunicated.

[OldSchool2]

46 minutes ago, OakWood said:

But he was only excommunicated because he rebelled. To the Vatican, any questioning of RCC doctrine is counted as rebellion.

Attaching a list of grievances to a church door is not a renunciation of a former allegiance.

The Vatican did not charge Luther with "rebellion," but heresy.

"... in July 1520 Pope Leo X issued a papal bull (public decree) that concluded that Luther’s propositions were heretical and gave Luther 120 days to recant in Rome. Luther refused to recant, and on January 3, 1521 Pope Leo excommunicated Martin Luther from the Catholic Church."

[OakWood]

Just now, OldSchool2 said:

Rebelled how as Lutheran had remained an Augustinian monk until he was excommunicated.

I think we're at cross purposes here. It matters not.

My point is that Luther being a member of the Catholic clergy was familiar with Catholic doctrine. He wasn't some outsider looking in. He knew what he was talking about when he finally realised that Catholicism was corrupt and needed to be reformed.

I'm not an expert on Luther's life history, but from what little I have read about him, he didn't want to stop being Catholic, he just wanted to reform the Church so it became more Biblical. Eventually he understood that this was not possible because the Vatican resisted all change, so he abandoned Catholicism altogether and preached independently of it. Maybe he was excommunicated first... I don't know... but it is not relevant to what I was trying to say earlier.

Coincidentally, I'm actually reading about Luther at the moment so when I have swatted up on him maybe I'll have more to say on the matter.

[existential mabel]

http://www.the-gospel-truth.info/bible-prophecy/christianity-corrupted/

[OakWood]

1 minute ago, existential mabel said:

http://www.the-gospel-truth.info/bible-prophecy/christianity-corrupted/

I agree. We all know that there will be a falling away. Many churches have already fallen.

[OldSchool2]

9 minutes ago, OakWood said:

I think we're at cross purposes here. It matters not.

My point is that Luther being a member of the Catholic clergy was familiar with Catholic doctrine. He wasn't some outsider looking in. He knew what he was talking about when he finally realised that Catholicism was corrupt and needed to be reformed....

Most of Luther's 95 theses didn't condemn the Catholic Church, but the Pope's unbiblical use of indulgences.

Luther willingly remained a Catholic monk until the day he was excommunicated, i.e., until he was given no choice in the matter. Rebellion involves a willful choice.

[OakWood]

1 minute ago, OldSchool2 said:

That much is obvious since most of Luther's 95 theses didn't condemn the Catholic Church, but the Pope's unbiblical use of indulgences.

Luther willingly remained a Catholic monk until the day he was excommunicated, i.e., until he was given no choice in the matter. Rebellion involves a willful choice.

Okay, fair enough. My point is... he wanted the truth. He found it not in Roman Catholicism. He had pleaded with the Church to change. It did not. So whether he jumped or was pushed.... he left.

Rebellion may be a choice, but it is not always a bad one.

[OldSchool2]

1 minute ago, OakWood said:

Okay, fair enough. My point is... he wanted the truth. He found it not in Roman Catholicism. He had pleaded with the Church to change. It did not. So whether he jumped or was pushed.... he left....

Not to beat a dead horse, but jumping ship is a choice; being pushed overboard isn't.

[OakWood]

Just now, OldSchool2 said:

Not to beat a dead horse, but jumping ship is a choice; being pushed overboard isn't.

So what? How is this relevant to the fact that Luther knew that Catholicism preached false doctrines? He jumped, he was pushed, he didn't jump, he wasn't pushed.... the end result is the same.......... the Protestant Reformation. Luther would have left sooner or later anyway. He may have been devoted to the Catholic Church but he was more devoted to the word of God.... and rightly so.