nebula Posted June 12, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 12, 2017 *Disclaimer - I do not agree with the man's underlying theology. However, I can sympathize with several points he makes. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, in reading this. I have been burned by Evangelicalism as it is practiced and preached. For all the good, there's carnage, and we need to stop excusing the carnage and accept that perhaps we have gotten off course. Food for thought. In our crusade for the Cross, have we made an idol out of it? "Faith becomes, not a journey to be traveled but an ideology in which to be conformed." "Doctrine, power, and dominance are lifted above all things. When push comes to shove, theological submission, creedal conformity, institutional preservation, an ideological alignment are determined to be far more important than serving, sacrificing, and putting the needs of others above ones own." "For at the center of conservative Christianity is the fundamental tenet that sin is actually manageable, spiritual growth is possible, and holiness is attainable through the exertion of human performance in concert with Jesus....It’s a living hell of rule-keeping, sin-managing, and do-gooding in fear and pressure to meet expectations, never truly knowing when enough is enough. "For on the horizon of conservative Evangelical Christianity there is always a sin to point out, a behavior to avoid, an issue to stand against, a debate to be argued, a rule to keep, an expectation to meet, and a “to do list” to accomplish. " "With every book, conference, worship chorus, building project, concert, revival, retreat, group, event, and prayer marathon, many conservative Christians see faithfulness as moving from one spiritual fix to the next." Read here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted June 13, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2017 The bread smells good, but we do not know how it tastes. You start shewing, it tastes good and then the taste changes. And then what? We need fellowship for our families, and children. And the righteous ways, and the whorshiping music, and the prayer, and the love and community of one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 13, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2017 6 hours ago, nebula said: *Disclaimer - I do not agree with the man's underlying theology. However, I can sympathize with several points he makes. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, in reading this. I have been burned by Evangelicalism as it is practiced and preached. For all the good, there's carnage, and we need to stop excusing the carnage and accept that perhaps we have gotten off course. Food for thought. In our crusade for the Cross, have we made an idol out of it? "Faith becomes, not a journey to be traveled but an ideology in which to be conformed." "Doctrine, power, and dominance are lifted above all things. When push comes to shove, theological submission, creedal conformity, institutional preservation, an ideological alignment are determined to be far more important than serving, sacrificing, and putting the needs of others above ones own." "For at the center of conservative Christianity is the fundamental tenet that sin is actually manageable, spiritual growth is possible, and holiness is attainable through the exertion of human performance in concert with Jesus....It’s a living hell of rule-keeping, sin-managing, and do-gooding in fear and pressure to meet expectations, never truly knowing when enough is enough. "For on the horizon of conservative Evangelical Christianity there is always a sin to point out, a behavior to avoid, an issue to stand against, a debate to be argued, a rule to keep, an expectation to meet, and a “to do list” to accomplish. " "With every book, conference, worship chorus, building project, concert, revival, retreat, group, event, and prayer marathon, many conservative Christians see faithfulness as moving from one spiritual fix to the next." Read here Hey nebula, really good to see you again, hope all is well. I think there are some points in this that I do agree with, but there are also many that are way off base in my opinion. Honestly, it sounds to me like this guy was a fire and brimstone type who did a lot of harm to relationships in his life, and now that he has found the damage to be irreparable he is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Things I would agree with are in regards to the self righteousness that springs out of so many, setting down their rules and requirements as though they speak for God themselves. Condemnation for those in opposition, sure, seen plenty of that. If you fail to agree, you are not welcome, not only within that church but off to hell you go as well. Yeah, seen plenty of that as well. Many churches have become cliquish, attempting to get involved exposes you to an ugliness one would not expect within Christianity, an almost politically driven type of atmosphere where to accomplish anything, you must conform to the ruling powers ways. This is one of the main reasons why at this point in my life, I do not get involved at church and prefer to remain anonymous in the back row. Things I do not agree with, cutting oneself off from fellowship completely in some kind of effort to avoid ugliness. Ugliness is everywhere in this world, there is no avoiding it unless one becomes a complete shut in. As the days in this world grow darker, our gathering together becomes even more important, perhaps more important now than it has ever been in the history of mankind. No, you won't find everything rosy inside any church you step inside, but the only real animosity that exists is that which we bring in ourselves. What I mean by that is this, if you step in the doors of a church you have never been in before, what wrong have they done but welcome you in? If you step in with negative expectations, that is precisely what you will find, so before stepping in, leave all baggage at the door. After all, isn't that what Jesus has done for us, wiped the slate clean? Another issue I disagreed with is this individual's position regarding God. Yes, He is indeed a loving God, but there is more to Him than that, and I dare not put Him in a box that appeals to my personal senses. There is indeed an eternal punishment, if that were not true then it would not be found in His Word. This gentleman wants to disrespect that Word so that he can throw out the things he doesn't like about it. The whole, "people worship the bible" mantra is a convenient excuse to disregard things that are clearly defined, such as an eternal punishment for those who oppose God. It may sound nice, and it may be just what many itching ears want to hear, but it is not true. Ignoring this is not an act of love toward anyone, it is quite the opposite. Putting the bible on trial is a foolish endeavor, and it is done by those who wish to abuse its teachings, most likely as this individual did during his ministry. The fact is, it is each individual believers responsibility to know God's Word themselves, and take responsibility for their own beliefs which should be founded on what the Holy Spirit teaches them through scripture. Blaming others for following crooked paths is about as sensible as walking off a bridge after someone else did and saying they made you do it too. We are instructed to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, not to have someone else work it out for us and follow them blindly. If one reads the bible for themselves, they would know there are numerous warnings about false teachings and false teachers, so this blindness is born of laziness. We are instructed to be sober and alert, but none of these instructions mean anything to those who don't bother to lift a finger. This gentleman also seems to find a flaw in doing things with the church, all the extra activities that many offer. His definition seems to be rather harsh, and leaves me wondering, what better things can a person do with their time? Is it better to go attend a concert praising the Lord, or sit at home and watch a few hours of television? He condemns the act of gathering together in such a manner, but offers no suggestions as to more positive alternatives. If I were going to write an article such as this, I would have suggested maybe people go minister at a homeless shelter, or spend time in a retirement home visiting the elderly, or maybe an orphanage. Surely since he finds filling one's time with church activities as such an offense he must have something better in mind, right? If he does, he failed to mention it. Honestly, what I see in his article, is a lot of bitterness. It sounds like he was not a good shepherd to me, and most likely lost his standing and his flock, perhaps lost personally as well, and now he is lashing out. That is how it reads to me anyway. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 "With all the many faithful interpretive options, believing in a hell of eternal torment and a God who allows it, is not just a convenient interpretive choice, it’s an affront to the cross and a murdering of God. " Thats as far as I needed to read. The guy doesnt believe the Bible. He is one of those who picks what appeases his conscience just as those in seeker friendly emergent churches have . I think I will throw this baby out along with his bath water. The word was very clear about the eternal lake of fire. The story of lazurus and the richman is not a parable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 I guess I'm the only one who's been burned by Evangelicalism? Look, I said I didn't agree with the guy's bottom line theology, but just because he goes to the opposite extreme on the issues doesn't mean he isn't noting valid problems. But i guess you have to be broken several times over before you are willing to admit there's something wrong with your theological upbringing bent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, nebula said: I guess I'm the only one who's been burned by Evangelicalism? Look, I said I didn't agree with the guy's bottom line theology, but just because he goes to the opposite extreme on the issues doesn't mean he isn't noting valid problems. But i guess you have to be broken several times over before you are willing to admit there's something wrong with your theological upbringing bent. There is a good number of people burned by churches and none of our gatherings are perfect and I know you know these things. The hard part is moving on after the hurt, the pain, the ranting and what is many times betrayal. We can pigeon hole ourselves and seems to me IMO he is just that. This guy makes some points and that's the hook, tapping into the emotions. The mantra "those that have an ear" is repulsive in my book, he attempts to sound scriptural but brings no conviction, correction, the way forward. He has taken what many of us have gone thru and made a spectacle and foundation for fellowship out of it. We can not have unity under what we are against. We must have unity under truth and what we are for, and truth leads us to love and unity with Christ and one another. Our hands need to be put into the hands of Jesus and to forgive and pray for those from our past that have hurt us. Not make it a precept for gathering together. At first having fellowship with others that have been hurt is okay but at some point the past needs to be just that, the past. It took me years to move forward even knowing I must. It isn't easy but with God all things are possible. He seems to be building a collective out of pain and hate, not sure what good can come from it unless he is also preaching the way forward. The love of Jesus in truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2017 4 hours ago, nebula said: I guess I'm the only one who's been burned by Evangelicalism? Look, I said I didn't agree with the guy's bottom line theology, but just because he goes to the opposite extreme on the issues doesn't mean he isn't noting valid problems. But i guess you have to be broken several times over before you are willing to admit there's something wrong with your theological upbringing bent. No, you are not alone in being burned. I have plenty of scars going back to my youth, there are so many things I could tell about the Baptist church I was raised in it would make you sick to your stomach. Over the years I have experienced the same thing in other churches as well. The problem with any church is that there are people in it lol. Not all of them are there for the right reasons. The issue with this guy is that he is clearly not a leader. His entire article is nothing but criticism, he offers no solutions outside of completely abandoning scripture. There is criticism, and there is constructive criticism. A leader offers constructive criticism, correction that points toward a proper direction, and this guy is pointing people in the wrong direction. I know you stated you don't accept his underlying theology, but when you examine what he is presenting that is what it is all about, his underlying theology. On that basis it is hard to accept anything he presents because his motives are clear to me. The problem that has surfaced in Protestant churches is the same issue that formed them, elevation of one man to the point of infallibility. This is why Protestants left the RCC in the first place, but human nature seems to lead people back to the same platform. People are so desperate for leadership they will follow anything once a person has their hooks into them. Fortunately someone sniffed this fella out and removed him from his roost, now all he can do is ooze sour grapes. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
existential mabel Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 151 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 3,149 Content Per Day: 1.05 Reputation: 2,066 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/12/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2017 5 hours ago, nebula said: I guess I'm the only one who's been burned by Evangelicalism? Look, I said I didn't agree with the guy's bottom line theology, but just because he goes to the opposite extreme on the issues doesn't mean he isn't noting valid problems. But i guess you have to be broken several times over before you are willing to admit there's something wrong with your theological upbringing bent. ive been burnt by it also far more than all the new age stuff that i used to pick n mix with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,166 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 15, 2017 This guys stuff I am just way to short lived for There is a pure doctrine and a way to live it! God says there will be few so don't expect it in the many.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,653 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2017 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Jhn 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” 1Pe 1:22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Jesus came not for the righteous but for sinners. So guess what our churches are filled with? Yup, sinners saved by grace. And we need to be filled with God's love for every last one of them. He died for them and is in the slow process of making each look more like Jesus. He had to start from scratch to make us new creations. And every so often the old man gets out of his death bed to cause trouble again. We will be a perfect church when we see Him as He is. Satan is on the attack against the church. The most dangerous to him are probably the evangelicals. Dead churches aren't much of a threat. New paradigm churches that don't preach the Gospel are no threat. And I have seen all of those faults in evangelical churches as well, and they are mostly rooted in selfishness and pride. God does chasten those he loves, and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. But it is far better to be chastened by a loving Father than to fall into the hands of Isis, which is only a foretaste of hell. So lets remember who the enemy is and be on the alert for the roaring lion gnashing his teeth. Don't be caught up in his accusations and half truths. Forgive and love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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