Jesus' Return II

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

Do you care about truth?   

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.  This passage alone thoroughly debunks pre-tribulationism.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

While you're at it lets get to the crux of the matter.  If pre-trib is the sensasional event you all claim it to be, then surely, there must be at least ONE verse that clearly states Jesus returns BEFORE the tribulation.  Can any of you pre-tribbers quote ONE?  Now I know that pre-tribbers are better fabricators than interpreters, so do your best.  Don't just quote any scripture dealing with Christ return.  Show me ONE that shows he returns BEFORE the tribulation. 

Perhaps you can show us one that beyond any shadow of doubt places the rapture of the church AFTER the "tribulation."

Did you notice that John saw the great crowd in heaven, too large to number, before he even started the 70th week in his narrative?  Millions believe this great crowd is the just raptured church. I do too. 

Surely you know that there is a difference in our everyday afflictions and the time when the wrath of God poured out.

The truth is, NOTHING debunks a pretrib rapture, for it is the plan of God. 

Always remember, there WILL BE an escape: it is the plan of God. (luke 21:36)

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Swords99 said:

It's in the Scriptures.

Truth! But some people wear preconceived glasses that prevent them from reading and understanding the intent of the Author. They read into scripture their preconceived theories.

[Swords99]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Truth! But some people wear preconceived glasses that prevent them from reading and understanding the intent of the Author. They read into scripture their preconceived theories.

So very true. This is why Christians MUST remain teachable. We have to allow the scriptures to teach us.

The scriptures says those who are saved will be kept from God's wrath. The Tribulation has nothing to do with the church. It's God's dealing with Israel and the soon return of their King.

What makes these discussions difficult is there are a lot of unbelievers on here.

[fixerupper]

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Perhaps you can show us one that beyond any shadow of doubt places the rapture of the church AFTER the "tribulation."

No need to wonder why YOU haven't quoted the ONE verse I asked for that claims Jesus returns BEFORE tribulation!

Immediately after the tribulation of those days....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven....And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Are you going to fabricate another rapture and another return of Christ to counter this pre-trib contradiction?  And what problems are you having with 1 Thes 3?

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Did you notice that John saw the great crowd in heaven, too large to number, before he even started the 70th week in his narrative?  Millions believe this great crowd is the just raptured church. I do too. 

You would have to prove that the 70th week is end-time, and prove that the crowd you speak of leaves out those who live during the tribulation.  You believe all this pre-trib stuff because you've accepted Daniel's 70th week and pre-trib, "line, hook, and sinker."

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Surely you know that there is a difference in our everyday afflictions and the time when the wrath of God poured out.

There is no difference.  Tribulation is tribulation.  Paul didn't differenciate in 1 Thes. 3.  He associated all afflictions together and said we are to suffer them so we may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, up to the time when Christ is glorified in his saints.  If you're in denial of that, you need a mentor other than the ones you currently have.

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The truth is, NOTHING debunks a pretrib rapture, for it is the plan of God. 

You're just in denial of it. Jesus and Paul debunk pre-trib, but you like all the others don't care about good, sensible exegesis.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven....And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Paul also says the gathering occurs AFTER the man of sin is revealed.  But you guys say the gathering happens BEFORE the man of sin is revealed!  I believe Jesus and Paul.  Not you or any other misled pre-tribber.

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Always remember, there WILL BE an escape: it is the plan of God. (luke 21:36)

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Maybe you need a tutor.  Jesus said that AFTER he said the gathering happens AFTER the tribulation!  And the word escape means "to flee out of a place" or "to bring safely through a danger."   It's the same word used of Paul's ESCAPE from Damascus, 2Cr 11:33.  ESCAPE IS NOT A REMOVAL OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE BY A RAPTURE.  

Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood or did He saved them through it?
Did God remove Daniel from the Lion's den or did He save him through it?
Did God remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace of did He save them through it?
Did God remove Job from his trials or did God help him through them?

Edited June 25, 2017 by fixerupper

[fixerupper]

35 minutes ago, Swords99 said:

So very true. This is why Christians MUST remain teachable. We have to allow the scriptures to teach us.

The scriptures says those who are saved will be kept from God's wrath. The Tribulation has nothing to do with the church. It's God's dealing with Israel and the soon return of their King.

What makes these discussions difficult is there are a lot of unbelievers on here.

Unbelievers in the fabricated doctrine of pre-trib and nothing else.

Edited June 25, 2017 by fixerupper

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

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Perhaps you can show us one that beyond any shadow of doubt places the rapture of the church AFTER the "tribulation."

No need to wonder why YOU haven't quoted the ONE verse I asked for that claims jesus returns BEFORE tribulation!

OK: I can do just what YOU do:  1 thes. 4 speaks of His pretrib coming for the rapture:

1 Thes 4:¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

That's it: ONE verse (Verse 15) in scripture that shows us a pretrib coming FOR HIS bride. It shows a COMING and it shows the gathering.

 

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven....And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So I am guessing this is your one verse that proves the rapture comes AFTER the tribulation? How funny!  First, you cannot prove beyond any shadow of doubt that this gathering is the rapture. Second, you cannot prove beyond any shadow of doubt that the word "heaven" here means anything other than the heaven where all the saints go and where God lives. We both know Paul's rapture will gather from the earth.  Next, WHERE IS HE in this verse? Again it is the word "heaven."  Next, you cannot prove this is Paul's gathering. In fact, when other end time verses are studied, it seems very UNLIKELY this is Paul's gathering. But you get credit for trying

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

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Did you notice that John saw the great crowd in heaven, too large to number, before he even started the 70th week in his narrative?  Millions believe this great crowd is the just raptured church. I do too. 

You would have to prove that the 70th week is end-time, and prove that the crowd you speak of leaves out those who live during the tribulation.  You believe all this pre-trib stuff because you've accepted Daniel's 70th week and pre-trib, "line, hook, and sinker."

Just like you would have to prove that the gathering in Matthew is indeed Paul's rapture!  No one has ever been able to prove it yet. May try to pass it off as an absolute fact though.

I accept what Daniel wrote. I did not insert a gap between the 69 weeks and the 70th: GOD DID, and Daniel wrote it. many people like to prove either pretrib or posttrib, but cannot show anyone where the "trib" is found in Revelation. They simply don't know that John begins the 70th week with the 7th seal, marks the midpoint with the 7th trumpet, and ends the week with the 7th vial. And that great crowd seen around the throne in in chapter 7, before John even begins the week. However, your average posttribber or prewrather will ignore these things.  Correction, I believe what is written, "hook, line and sinker." John has not arrived at "those who live during the tribulation" in chapter 7. 

BANG! [the gavel drops!] Case closed. Pretrib is scriptural.

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

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Surely you know that there is a difference in our everyday afflictions and the time when the wrath of God poured out.

There is no difference.  Tribulation is tribulation.  Paul didn't differenciate in 1 Thes. 3.  He associated all afflictions together and said we are to suffer them so we may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, up to the time when Christ is glorified in his saints.  If you're in denial of that, you need a mentor other tha the ones you currently have.

How strange then that JESUS did differentiate: He spoke of days of tribulation SO GREAT there never was before and never would be again any days so bad.  I know it is difficult to imagine, but is it possible you just don't understand Paul in 1 Thes. 3? The truth is, we all suffer "tribulation" at some level or another: some very little, but others to the death. But we have not arrived at those days Jesus spoke of, and will not until after the midpoint of the future 70th week. To imagine otherwise is simply error in  understanding scripture.

I cannot agree with your brand of exegesis. You are missing the intent of the Author in 2 thes.2 by a country mile.

Please answer a simple question: in 2 thes. 2:3b (the last part of the verse) please tell us, is the man of sin revealed in Paul's argument at this moment in time - or not?

"Maybe you need a tutor.  Jesus said that AFTER he said the gathering happens AFTER the tribulation!" No tutor needed here. I understand these verses. Paul is talking about a gathering of the Jews back to Israel: a gathering that will gather all over heaven and all over earth. Sorry, but this gathering does not FIT Paul's gathering. Paul's gathering is before the "trib" not after. John saw the great crowd in heaven before the "trib," not after.

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, inchrist said:

Show me were it states heaven is open for your  pre trib rapture

Show us a verse that proves to all that Paul's rapture will be posttrib.

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Can you please teach me what this means

Rev 11:18

The time has come for judging the dead

It may be too late.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Unbelievers in the fabricated doctrine of pre-trib and nothing else.

Look: if you wish to be left behind at the pretrib rapture that WILL SOON TAKE PLACE, that is OK. It is your desire. but please don't try to convinces others to follow you. There WILL BE an escape. If you don't wish to take it, fine. Always remember, Jesus will be coming for those LOOKING for His coming. It will be very difficult for posttribbers to be expecting His coming tomorrow.

[fixerupper]

38 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Look: if you wish to be left behind at the pretrib rapture that WILL SOON TAKE PLACE, that is OK. It is your desire. but please don't try to convinces others to follow you. There WILL BE an escape. If you don't wish to take it, fine. Always remember, Jesus will be coming for those LOOKING for His coming. It will be very difficult for posttribbers to be expecting His coming tomorrow.

If you don't wish to accept logical evidence, a day is coming when you'll be thouroughly misled.  The world will be hurled into tribulation and the man of sin will be here and you guys will be waiting for a rapture.