How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thanks Retro,

Science was not my best subject, however.....I was speaking of the angelic realm & I have no idea what the `substance` (only word I could think of) would be, but it is immortal and incorruptible, which isn`t anything in this corrupted universe.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

And, THAT is the reason why you think that there has to be a new universe. Tell me, in what possible way could mankind have harmed the WHOLE UNIVERSE?! Do you know how big the "WHOLE UNIVERSE" is?! The farther they look through the biggest telescopes, they continue to find more and more galaxies, each containing BILLIONS of stars even up to a TRILLION stars! And, that's just as far as we can see! God PAINTS with the stars, galaxies and nebulae! Part of that "palette" involves destructive processes. Even the burning of a star involves MILLIONS of fusion atom bombs going off at the same time! That's not "corruption." That's how God made them work in the first place! It's part of the Creative Process, just like digestion requires the chemical breakdown of the food we eat!

Now, I ask you this: How can we talk about an "angelic realm," when we don't even know the full extent of the physical realm?! It's NOT a "corrupted universe!" It's just as He made it, and His assessment of it was "very good." (Genesis 1:31.)

Edited July 6, 2017 by Retrobyter
to add Scripture

[Marilyn C]

59 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

It's NOT a "corrupted universe!" It's just as He made it, and His assessment of it was "very good." (Genesis 1:31.)

Hi Retro,

I believe God would differ from your thought. Things have changed dramatically since Gen. 1: 31.

`And the heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job 15: 15)

Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

On 7/4/2017 at 8:59 PM, Marilyn C said:

This is what you are referring to. I said -

Wonderful promises to the believers, the overcomers -

- eat of the tree of life, (Christ Himself, his character and life)

 

Hello Marilyn,

I am not sure how you are coming to the conclusion that Christ is the tree of life in scripture.  He is often spoken of as the "bread of life", but the tree of life does not produce bread, it produces fruit (12 kinds).  To me, this is actually contradictory in regards to Jesus, and I will explain why with scripture.

 

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

Following the original sin, Adam and Eve were removed from the garden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life, and also God put up a guard to the tree of life.  Jesus is not kept from us, we did not have to get by the cherubim and flaming sword to receive salvation.  Jesus also walked in the garden with Adam and Eve before the fall, and the tree was still there.

 

Revelation 22: 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

The tree of life produces 12 kinds of fruit on a monthly basis, so how does that equate to Jesus, does He only produce fruit on a monthly basis?  And what about the leaves of the tree for healing of the nations? 

[wingnut-]

On 7/4/2017 at 9:08 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I do not believe that the Body of Christ will reside in the new Jerusalem. We have never been promised that, from what I see in scripture. Would you care to show why you think that?

Marilyn.

 

Well, for starters the passage of scripture you quoted.

 

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

 

The Bride represents believers, the two are connected right here as one.  The other evidence is in regards to the 7 churches, and all the promises to the overcomers/ conquerors/ believers directly associated with attributes of the New Jerusalem.  Here are some additional passages that I had not posted previously, beginning with the great multitude.

 

Revelation 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

 

Those who have washed their robes have the right to the tree, and to enter the city.  This includes the great multitude who washed their robes.  Also it is important to note they may enter the city by the gates, the 12 gates represent the 12 tribes of Israel, there is no other way into the city.

 

Revelation 7:15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,
    and serve him day and night in his temple;
    and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
    the sun shall not strike them,
    nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
    and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

 

Revelation 22  Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

 

They are before the throne of God, and the throne of God and the Lamb are in the city.  God and the Lamb are the temple, and they are in the city which is where the great multitude serves them.  There is no sun so it cannot strike them, and the living water is in the city.  Everything promised to the great multitude, as well as the 7 churches, is in the city.  The Bride itself is connected to the city.

God bless

 

[wingnut-]

On 7/4/2017 at 9:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Do you believe the Lord is WITH you now and in the future. Does He have to be physically following you around? God is a spirit and thus will be everywhere as He is now. The wonderful point is that He will be with those in the New Jerusalem in a specific way - bringing blessings, harmony, unity, wisdom, knowledge, community etc etc.

I agree all realms will be made new - no sin, no decay and all under the Lordship of Christ who is the supreme ruler with His seat of power & authority over all.

Marilyn.

 

Hello Marilyn,

The Lord does not dwell with me at the present time, He dwells within me, big difference.  There would be no reason for God to announce He is going to dwell with us in the future if nothing were different about it than the present.  The Lord won't be following anyone around, the exact opposite is said.

 

Revelation 14: 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,

 

If I understand your position correctly, can you explain how the 144,000 can follow Jesus wherever He goes if they are on earth and He is in the third heavens?  Or if your position is that Jesus is on earth, then can you explain how the Bride can forever be with the Lord if they are in the third heaven? 

God bless

[wingnut-]

On 7/4/2017 at 9:25 PM, Marilyn C said:

And that throne we know from God`s word is `far above all...not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

 

Hello Marilyn,

I don't see that passage saying what you are taking it to say.  It is speaking of Jesus being far above all, and though His throne is presently located above, it is clearly not staying there in the age that is to come.  In Ephesians 1 Paul writes multiple times about our inheritance, and our inheritance are all things associated with the New Jerusalem.  We are told several times in Revelation that both God and Jesus are in the city, and that the throne is in the city.  Take this verse from Ephesians 1 for example, and what it says.

 

Ephesians 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

He is going to unite all things in heaven and on earth, not divide them up.

 

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

 

Both are the temple in the city, both are in the city.

 

Revelation 21: 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

 

Can you explain how the Lamb is the lamp in the city if He is not in the city?

 

Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

 

This verse is very clear on the matter, the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city.

 

On 7/4/2017 at 9:25 PM, Marilyn C said:

The Body of Christ with the Lord the groom, will serve in the third heaven, while the city, coming down, as a bride, will serve in the lower heavens.

 

If the city is not on the earth, then how do the kings of the earth and the nations have access to it?

 

Revelation 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.

 

If I am understanding you correctly, we have Jesus and the church in the third heavens, Israel and the New Jerusalem hovering just above the earth with God the Father?  Who is on the earth then?  And why does scripture states that the 144,000 follow Jesus wherever He goes?  How do you explain that?

God bless

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I believe God would differ from your thought. Things have changed dramatically since Gen. 1: 31.

`And the heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job 15: 15)

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Be careful with the context of a particular passage: You've yanked Job 15:15b out of its context. Let's look at the WHOLE thing, and look at what He said in light of the passage:

Job 15:1-35
1 Then Elifaz the Teimani spoke: 
2 “Should a wise man answer with hot-air arguments?
Should he fill up his belly with the hot east wind?
3 Should he reason with useless talk
or make speeches that do him no good? 
4 “Why, you are abolishing fear of God
and hindering prayer to him!
5 Your iniquity is teaching you how to speak,
and deceit is your language of choice.
6 Your own mouth condemns you, not I;
your own lips testify against you. 

7 “Were you the firstborn of the human race,
brought forth before the hills?
8 Do you listen in on God’s secrets?
Do you limit wisdom to yourself?
9 What do you know that we don’t know?
What discernment do you have that we don’t?
10 With us are gray-haired men, old men,
men much older than your father.
11 Are the comfortings of God not enough for you,
or a word that deals gently with you?
12 Why does your heart carry you away,
and why do your eyes flash angrily,
13 so that you turn your spirit against God
and let such words escape your mouth? 

14 “What is a human being, that he could be innocent,
someone born from a woman, that he could be righteous?
15 God doesn’t trust even his holy ones;
no, even the heavens are not innocent in his view.
16 How much less one loathesome and corrupt,
a human being, who drinks iniquity like water. 

17 “I will tell you — hear me out!
I will recount what I have seen;
18 wise men have told it,
and it wasn’t hidden from their fathers either,
19 to whom alone the land was given —
no foreigner passed among them. 

20 “The wicked is in torment all his life,
for all the years allotted to the tyrant.
21 Terrifying sounds are in his ears;
in prosperity, robbers swoop down on him.
22 He despairs of returning from darkness —
he is destined to meet the sword.
23 He wanders and looks for food, which isn’t there.
He knows the day of darkness is ready, at hand.
24 Distress and anguish overwhelm him,
assaulting him like a king about to enter battle. 

25 “He raises his hand against God
and boldly defies Shaddai,
26 running against him with head held high
and thickly ornamented shield. 

27 “He lets his face grow gross and fat,
and the rest of him bulges with blubber;
28 he lives in abandoned cities,
in houses no one would inhabit,
houses about to become ruins;
29 therefore he will not remain rich,
his wealth will not endure,
his produce will not bend
[the grain stalks] to the earth. 

30 “He will not escape from darkness.
The flame will dry up his branches.
By a breath from the mouth of [God],
he will go away.
31 Let him not rely on futile methods,
thereby deceiving himself;
for what he will receive in exchange
will be only futility.
32 This will be accomplished in advance of its day.
His palm frond will not be fresh and green;
33 he will be like a vine that sheds its unripe grapes,
like an olive tree that drops its flowers. 

34 “For the community of the ungodly is sterile;
fire consumes the tents of bribery.
35 They conceive trouble and give birth to evil;
their womb prepares deceit.” 
CJB

Are you really going to take Elifaz's word for it? What does HE know about it?! He's one of Iyov's (Job's) biggest nay-sayers! Does God really mistrust "even his holy ones?" Do you realize that he is calling Iyov "one loathesome and corrupt, a human being, who drinks iniquity like water?" How would you take someone calling YOU that?!

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Be careful with the context of a particular passage: You've yanked Job 15:15b out of its context. Let's look at the WHOLE thing, and look at what He said in light of the passage:

Are you really going to take Elifaz's word for it? What does HE know about it?! He's one of Iyov's (Job's) biggest nay-sayers! Does God really mistrust "even his holy ones?" Do you realize that he is calling Iyov "one loathesome and corrupt, a human being, who drinks iniquity like water?" How would you take someone calling YOU that?!

Hi Retro,

So true, not to just believe what one person says, however it does line up with what is shown in God`s word.

Just aside - we do know that there is a vast amount of rubbish out there in space,- old bits of stuff that man has put up there, and it continues to circle the earth.

As to scripture, well we know that Lucifer was cast out of the angelic realm and then he usurped the authority of the principalities and powers realm. Eventually we know that his authority will be curtailed to just on the earth.

And I think we are far progressing from this thread. So to continue we would need to start a new thread. (don`t you think?)

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

So true, not to just believe what one person says, however it does line up with what is shown in God`s word.

Just aside - we do know that there is a vast amount of rubbish out there in space,- old bits of stuff that man has put up there, and it continues to circle the earth.

As to scripture, well we know that Lucifer was cast out of the angelic realm and then he usurped the authority of the principalities and powers realm. Eventually we know that his authority will be curtailed to just on the earth.

And I think we are far progressing from this thread. So to continue we would need to start a new thread. (don`t you think?)

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Yes, human beings have put "space junk" out there, but by and large, that is restricted to our LOCAL area, namely the planetary ecliptic of our solar system. We have put NOTHING beyond the reach of our own sun ... yet.

As far as haSatan is concerned, that is ALL speculation and the interpretation of questionable passages of Scripture. If you're going to give "angels" ("messengers") such an interpretation, remember Hebrews.

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV

[Retrobyter]

On 7/3/2017 at 5:44 PM, Swords99 said:

True, believers will have a glorified body like Christ's which will go through doors and windows and be from one place to the next in a second as Christ demonstrated after His resurrection.

The Jews never had a heavenly kingdom promised to them but an earthly one where Christ will be their king and rule in Jerusalem.

Shabbat shalom, Swords99.

Actually, while we DO know that we will "have a glorified body like Christ's," we DON'T know that we will "have a glorified body ... which will go through doors and windows and be from one place to the next in a second." That's all speculation. You have absolutely NO biblical proof for any of that. While it's fun to think about, one CANNOT hang one's theology on that speculation.

Furthermore, you don't know what you're talking about regarding the "heavenly kingdom" promised:

Matthew 3:1-6
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (within your grasp).
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
KJV

Matthew 4:12-17
12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (within your grasp).
KJV

(In Classical Greek, there's no difference between the ablative [ouranou = from-the-sky] and the genitive cases [ouranou = of-the-sky]. Koine Greek separates these into two different cases; however, they look the same and are treated the same! The same is true for the locative [ouranoo = in-the-sky/at-the-sky], instrumental [ouranoo = with-the-sky/by-the-sky], and dative [ouranoo = to-the-sky/for-the-sky] cases. All three are considered just the dative case in Classical Greek.)

To whom did John (Yochanan) and Jesus (Yeshua`) herald this message about "the Kingdom from heaven" or "the Kingdom from the sky?" Wasn't it to the children of Israel who were said to have responded to that message? (Matt. 3:5-6.)

Didn't Yeshua` say, 

Matthew 15:21-24
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
KJV

Yeshua` was NOT telling this message to the "church!"

To whom was Yeshua` delivering the "beatitudes?"

Matthew 5:1-12
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
KJV