What is meant by...?

[WalkingMyFishLikeABoss]

On 7/2/2017 at 10:35 PM, Soy Richard said:

Hi. What does Jesus want us to understand when he said, "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18,8

I think you have to read the whole chapter to understand the parable. It's like taking a sentence out of a novel when you just post a single verse in the bible asking what that sentence means to the whole of the novel itself. It doesn't mean anything when it is cut out of the whole story.

 

[Soy Richard]

Thanks BK1110

I apologise for the delay. Also sorry for the length of this reply - I'm summarising as much as I dare.

Before looking at the passage in Thessalonians let's start (and agree ?) that the Kingdom of God (also referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven) is to located on the Earth - not in heaven. If we can't agree that fact there's little point in continuing the conversation. So, with that in place, we have the rapture as inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus, the apostles and the prophets about the Kingdom of God Jesus will establish when he comes. Therefore, we must expose the actual teaching of Paul in 1 Thess. Here we go:

1. Firstly, Paul says clearly that  "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven" . . (v 16)

2. Then follows the resurrection  -  "the dead in Christ shall rise first" (v 16)

3. They will then be joined by those who are alive at the time Jesus returns  -  "then we which are alive and remain" . . (v 17)

4  They "shall be caught up together with them" (v 17). The Greek word translated 'caught up' is 'harpazo' (Strong's Concordance 726 - 'to seize, catch away'. Also translated 'to catch away, to carry off'  Those alive when Jesus returns will be caught away to join with the dead in Christ who have already been raised. The same word is used in Acts 8:39 - 40 - "The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip",. and he "was found at Azotus."

5. "in the clouds" (v 17)  The definite article is missing in the Greek, and should be rendered  "in clouds". We should recognise this as referring to clouds of the redeemed as in Hebrews 12: 1  -  "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses."

6. "to meet the Lord in the air". The same Greek word is used in Revelation, "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air"(ch 16:17). We are aware that this is a book of sign and the air or the heavens, where the sun and the moon and the stars are to be found, represent the ruling classes, while 'the earth' represents the common people.

The air in Revelation refers to the political firmament upon which the seventh vial is poured, and our verse in Thessalonians has to do with the role of the redeemed (saints) in high political office  -  they will be co-rulers with Christ in the earthly kingdom." If we suffer, we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim.2:12} and, "hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." (Rev,5.10).

I think we have a coherent fit of 1 Thess with our wider understanding of the coming Kingdom of God. If we maintain an idea that the rapture is a taking away of the redeemed in Christ to heaven we have a misfit. I believe. There is more I can supply, should you wish.

Regards

 

[Soy Richard]

Dear kwikphilly. Thanks for your comments. No, not a typo!

Here you are:

Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. Are you using this verse to set the scene? I'm assuming so as this does not provide any evidence for a rapture. on the contrary, if you refer to the application of symbolism in my previous post you'll see this statement from Jesus is consistent with his coming to earth to set up an earthly kingdom. The Son of Man will appear, on earth, in heaven - the ruling 'heaven' or high place (consistent with other scripture). The mourning of the earthly population is because the day of judgement is come, the day of the Lord (many scriptures eg. Joel) and the vengeance of our God (Is.61). They will see the Son of Man coming because he is in earthly places and they are earthly people. That's obvious! The clouds of heaven, again, must be consistent with other scripture, so we see Jesus with his redeemed, the clouds of witnesses from Hebrews. The redeemed given names and places in his Kingdom on earth. Rulers with Jesus who is the King promised to David to sit on his throne in Zion. Power and great glory is obvious now. 

 

Luke 17:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Applying this statement to the  day of Lord when he (Jesus) appears on the earth (and not the dual application destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 and end of the commonwealth of Israel, which we might also discuss) we can easily see this is a reference to the happens set out on 1 Thess 4. The dead in Christ to be raised and those alive at his coming will be taken to him (no one is denying that) - just like Thess 4 says. From the heavens and the four winds is, again, symbolism, that is from all the world, where ever the redeemed, saints, elect (whatever scriptural name you wish to use) happen to be when Jesus appears as the thief in the night. 

 

34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 

Consistent with the above. We know Jesus is to gather his elect for judgement. Also to appreciate this is a strong reference to the turmoil and desperation that Jerusalem witnessed in AD70 when the population was besieged, starved, overthrown and taken into captivity!

 

35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” 

Consistent with the above. We know Jesus is to gather his elect for judgement.

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

This may be a reference to Jerusalem as the carcass. Other translations have it 'eagles' which may be a reference to the Roman army or a system that did the work. Whatever, we have a vision of something no long living that is picked over, What is Jesus teaching? The end of something important to God - His people in His land, Israel. Again, though, note Jesus uses symbols.

 

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 

Symbols, not literal. The sun and moon (as in Rev) representing the ruling classes, kings and priests for example. Think of Israel again, the Judaic system was overthrown by the Romans (their transgressions were full) and the ruling class and priesthood were demolished. Jesus simply expresses that happening in symbols - like his did to John in Rev. Same for your next point. 

 

25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 

 

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 

With reference to the destruction of Israel in AD70 we have the symbol of the day of the Lord (be careful - there are many days of the Lord) where the Son of Man is expressed as coming upon the earth in the form of an avenging army on God's rebellious and disobedient people. The Roman army did indeed come with power and glory. I suspect you won't like that one as an exposition of the words of Jesus here. On the second application - still future - we can simply go back to the explanation that Jesus is to come to the earth with the overt power of his Father to establish the Kingdom of God in Israel (Acts 1) as he must and this will be a complete change to the earth requiring great power and glory. 

 

27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. Done this above

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.  Ah, yes! Forgive me please. This is a gift for my argument and, with much respect, if I may, undermines the rapture idea. Look what Jesus says! "that you also may be where I am." He comes to the earth to restore the Kingdom to Israel in Israel to fulfil God's promise to David (not to mention Abraham) and so he is telling his elect they will be with him there - on the earth, not in heaven. He cannot fulfil the promise to David there! 

 

All the best

[Kevinw]

I think the point of this verse is to emphasize the importance of faith in the Lord Jesus.  We need to believe that he is the Son of God, the Savior of the world, and that through faith in him we can be cleansed from sin and lifted up at the last day.

[Soy Richard]

Hi Kevinw. Thanks for the comment. Of course, what you say is undeniable. I think what I'm trying to get at with this statement of Jesus is the state of the Gospel as revealed by the prophets and apostles and Jesus himself at the time of his return and open revealing to the earth. The inference from his words is clear: will he find (the) faith? He is not asking a open question as if he requires an answer, he knows, but it is to the hearers with open ears, bringing their attention to the loss of the faith at the time when he returns. It is, then, both an encouragement and warning. It is also an indication as to the state of the world before he comes. 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Soy

      I've already asked,respectfully,if you are a Christian (twice)& explained that the Seekers Lounge is for Unbelievers ,Seekers  & guests to ask us(Christians) questions about our Faith......so I suppose since you have not responded that  it is safe to assume that you are not......thats fine,we do welcome everyone to this Ministry

    You certainly do not have to share with us what you do believe but I would like to know what you hope to gain here by posting your question...

Quote

Hi. What does Jesus want us to understand when he said, "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18,8

                        Your question has been answered several times-although it is clear you do not believe Gods Word is literal ....I do Believe you agree as you just stated.(below)......Maybe you would like to begin another Topic......"Gathering the Elect"

Quote

He is not asking a open question as if he requires an answer, he knows, but it is to the hearers with open ears, bringing their attention to the loss of the faith at the time when he returns. It is, then, both an encouragement and warning. It is also an indication as to the state of the world before he comes. 

          I think we can all agree here!                                             Praise Jesus                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           God Bless,Kwik

[BK1110]

On 7/13/2017 at 7:55 AM, Soy Richard said:

Thanks BK1110

I apologise for the delay. Also sorry for the length of this reply - I'm summarising as much as I dare.

Before looking at the passage in Thessalonians let's start (and agree ?) that the Kingdom of God (also referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven) is to located on the Earth - not in heaven. If we can't agree that fact there's little point in continuing the conversation. So, with that in place, we have the rapture as inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus, the apostles and the prophets about the Kingdom of God Jesus will establish when he comes. Therefore, we must expose the actual teaching of Paul in 1 Thess. Here we go:

1. Firstly, Paul says clearly that  "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven" . . (v 16)

2. Then follows the resurrection  -  "the dead in Christ shall rise first" (v 16)

3. They will then be joined by those who are alive at the time Jesus returns  -  "then we which are alive and remain" . . (v 17)

4  They "shall be caught up together with them" (v 17). The Greek word translated 'caught up' is 'harpazo' (Strong's Concordance 726 - 'to seize, catch away'. Also translated 'to catch away, to carry off'  Those alive when Jesus returns will be caught away to join with the dead in Christ who have already been raised. The same word is used in Acts 8:39 - 40 - "The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip",. and he "was found at Azotus."

5. "in the clouds" (v 17)  The definite article is missing in the Greek, and should be rendered  "in clouds". We should recognise this as referring to clouds of the redeemed as in Hebrews 12: 1  -  "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses."

6. "to meet the Lord in the air". The same Greek word is used in Revelation, "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air"(ch 16:17). We are aware that this is a book of sign and the air or the heavens, where the sun and the moon and the stars are to be found, represent the ruling classes, while 'the earth' represents the common people.

The air in Revelation refers to the political firmament upon which the seventh vial is poured, and our verse in Thessalonians has to do with the role of the redeemed (saints) in high political office  -  they will be co-rulers with Christ in the earthly kingdom." If we suffer, we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim.2:12} and, "hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." (Rev,5.10).

I think we have a coherent fit of 1 Thess with our wider understanding of the coming Kingdom of God. If we maintain an idea that the rapture is a taking away of the redeemed in Christ to heaven we have a misfit. I believe. There is more I can supply, should you wish.

Regards

 

Oh I certainly don't believe the rapture is believers going to heaven; as you've said, Jesus will establish his kingdom on earth and reign here for the 1,000 year period. It seems we only split as to the destination of the rapture; either literally in the air to meet Christ as he comes, or just a gathering on earth. Unless I've misunderstood you in some way. Either way, it doesn't seem like there's a disagreement on any core tenant of the faith here. I've heard good arguments for any number of different ways it all might go down, but frankly I haven't studied it as deeply as some because I'm not sure it matters that much; Christ is coming and he will reign and bring about the eventual end of this world according to His will, and He certainly has the details worked out.

[Soy Richard]

22 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Soy

      I've already asked,respectfully,if you are a Christian (twice)& explained that the Seekers Lounge is for Unbelievers ,Seekers  & guests to ask us(Christians) questions about our Faith......so I suppose since you have not responded that  it is safe to assume that you are not......thats fine,we do welcome everyone to this Ministry

    You certainly do not have to share with us what you do believe but I would like to know what you hope to gain here by posting your question...

                        Your question has been answered several times-although it is clear you do not believe Gods Word is literal ....I do Believe you agree as you just stated.(below)......Maybe you would like to begin another Topic......"Gathering the Elect"

          I think we can all agree here!                                             Praise Jesus                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           God Bless,Kwik

Hi kwikphilly. I'm sorry, you have asked and, yes, most certainly I am a believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I apologise for the delay in clarifying that. My posting to an incorrect section of the network is my ignorance in action. It was my first attempt so, I apologise. : ¬ ]

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Soy

   No problem at all.....so lets get this Thread moved,you get many more replies when each reply does not require moderator review.which takes a lot of time also !I will mark it now to be moved to the Proper Forum (General Discussion/Inner Court)            I think you will probably enjoy the Prophecy Forum/Eschatology Forum too,which is also in the Inner Court,I do encourage you to begin a Thread there,people with the same interests go there to discuss & share on these Topics

   Thanks for the reply Soy,that was the reason for my question,I did not think you were a Seeker,lol                   With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Your closest friendnt]

On 7/2/2017 at 10:35 PM, Soy Richard said:

Hi. What does Jesus want us to understand when he said, "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18,8

Hi Soy Richard, this statement that JESUS made, it is a statement that stands on its own. 

"Nevertheless when the Son of Man cometh, Shall he find faith on the Earth". 

JESUS made this statement before his death on the Cross. 

The people who heard him, what are they supposed to understand. 

I don't think they understood the context JESUS had in his mind when he made that statement. 

Certainly the disciples did not understand what Jesus was saying. 

If you understand what they believe about the CHRIST you may understand them why the keep saying to JESUS don't talk about your self like that, that you are going away , or that you will put to death. 

They were telling Jesus don't you know that the CHRIST will never die, that he will live forever , and rule from Jerusalem forever.

What a strange thing for Jesus to say about himself. 

"When the Son of Man cometh back to Earth......". 

I an not sure if by that time JESUS had raised anyone from the dead. 

He Jesus one time met a widow whose only Son had left the Earth, because he had died, and Jesus brought him back to the Earth, from the place of the dead. 

And I think it was another young woman, a daughter of someone I don't remember their names, who had died but was not buried, who had just died, a day or two, the same as the young man, the only son of the window, whom JESUS met his funeral procession, whom JESUS met the dead body or the corpse, of the departed, which in both these events they had departed from amongs the living in the Earth, and were amongs the Dead in the Land of the Dead in the heart of the Earth. 

And whom JESUS raised from the dead, and they came back to the Earth. 

JESUS CHRIST knew that no one, not even his disciples believe that he had to die, and go to the place of the dead, and he also knew that even his own disciples when they see him dead on the Cross, they all without exception they will stopped believing in him that he was the CHRIST. 

Because they believe that the CHRIST will never die, and they watch JESUS been crusified with the hope and the expectation, that been a test, and the means by which God will intervene and safe him, and revealing him to all as the CHRIST, and all the people including the Preist will bow down and worship him. 

But that didn't happen, and at the time of his death, everyone stopped believing in him. 

So JESUS CHRIST was right when he was raised from the place of the dead, and he came back to Earth, "would he found faith", JESUS CHRIST was right, he did not find anyone believing in him, he did not find any faith in anyone still believing in him and waiting to welcome him at the time of his resurection. 

To the contrary they were getting ready to put away and buried his body. JESUS when he came back to Earth from the place of the dead, he did not find any faith, he was right , he knew the consepts in people about the CHRIST and he knew when he died, that everyone who was believing in him, will be disappointed and stopped believing.