What is free will really, what does it mean to have free will?

[enoob57]

4 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Just   trying to comprehend satan ability to create as in your statement in essence he "satan" created sin and as you points out in scripture there is no darkness in God.   So how did satan get or have this capability to create sin.  I mean it is a damming thing that is has our world and mankind in the state it is in. Surely God would have to have known that satan had that capability and allowed it.   God is the Alpha and Omega, therefore his knowledge of satan choice would have been known.  I think ,there are some things that happened there that we are not privileged to know in detail and God made it this way to limit our knowledge of  that period.

My stammer is God made satan perfect in all his ways, that meant ultimate perfection.   How could ultimate perfection come to know pride as it should not have existed and therefore not be a choice in a perfect world.  Something is missing that maybe the folks here could fill in.

Colossians 1  King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
 

my reply in your quote to the above verse:
this is exactly why I say sin has no created place but the one God has made for it 'hell' ... it (sin) has nothing in and of God forever!

You've misread my post. I do not claim sin to be a created essence but a perversion of that which is created. A lie has nothing in an of itself moreover anything of God! What satan did was separate himself from The Lord by the multitude of his abilities in which he did not want to give back to God in increase of God's glory...  we have this in ourselves to examine! Knowing God is worthy to receive all that we are given back to Him for His glory - Do we? I find myself lacking a lot! I believe it is the mark of perfection Paul strove to arrive at but never quite did-> except in The Lord Jesus... Who loved us and gave His Life for an exchange for that which we lack... it is easily seen this way the stuff of our first birth and the world is set aside for destruction and when people look to the stuff itself for redemption -what is in it to redeem'?' But when we see the emptiness of the things of this world and are set free to value them as God does 'the souls of men to be born out from it'

Jude 21 (KJV)

[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

[22] And of some have compassion, making a difference:

[23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

[24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

[25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The garment itself is not sin for God made us the first one (both garment and world) but is and always will be a reminder of that which has fallen.... A world, He (God), made for us and we in turn gave it to the created angel Lucifer (this world) by following his directives of rebellion ... that is why when God's Word is finished in it's revelation of truth standing against the perversion of that truth 'lie' the world will be completely burnt up!

We are to live in The s/Spirit not in the flesh~ who does this perfectly{!} >Jesus< only He! When we view our own works here as filthy rags compared to a Life that never once yielded to flesh but to God The Father perfectly even in The Death On The Cross we are left to see what a perfect life 'IS' and I for one would never look to myself to accomplish this but always to Him Who Did!!! By fixating on The Life of Jesus I am setting myself, along with The Power of s/Spirit within, a mark of perfection that even though I am utilizing the things of this world that passes away I look not unto the things but unto Him... Denying myself in first birth and the world as anything to be considered.... The mercy and power of God 'IS' being in a place of rebellion and lie and I am wonderfully kept from it by His Life which is becoming my own...
Love, Steven

[hmbld]

18 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 I would still like to see people point out, from scripture, why I should not believe those things to be true.

 

Well, this is interesting!

[warrior12]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

You've misread my post. I do not claim sin to be a created essence but a perversion of that which is created. A lie has nothing in an of itself moreover anything of God!

 

When you said "satan fathered lie " i deliberately said you said created as it could be seen as that too.  Please don't see my reply earlier as putting words in your mouth, but i just wanted to grasp the idea of the creation of sin or the invention of it.  If God did not created it and satan did not it just cannot just exist as an object. The question still remains, how did get it's genesis and how did perfection turn to wickedness by pride .  What i am trying to see here, is those attributes did not suppose to be around in the presence of perfection, which seemed to exist before satan's fall.  Thanks enoob57 for your patience. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by warrior12

[WalkingMyFishLikeABoss]

15 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

First off, sin is not limited to transgressions of law, unless you consider law to be God's thoughts and will, even without there being any written code. Sin is much simpler than that, sin is falling short of perfection. God did not create sin by creating law, by law, He exposed or revealed sin, for what it is. You do not have to have a law that says, 'thou shalt not murder' for murder to be a sin, it is sin my nature, because it is outside of God's will, written or not!

God did not create sin. If He did, then God was the first sinner.

1 John 3:4: “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law”

   
1 John 5:17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not to death.

Sin in the scriptures is defined by a set of precepts, rules, God expects imperfect people to abide by in order to overcome what they are first. A sinner. Who sins.

This occurred because in the beginning God made the first humans without an intellect. They were as innocent as newborn babies unable to comprehend ultimatums and choice. All this occurred as we're told throughout the scriptures because God knew them before he created them to live what he predetermined before he created the world they would inhabit.
We Christians will find a way to explain everything in order to keep ourselves assured that we're following the right path. However, it is not possible to say God is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, and of course all that is in between, and defend his sovereignty, and then argue in any capacity that the sole creator of all that is cannot have created something.

God's law , his orders for our behavior arrived to contain and bridle our sin nature. The dual aspect of creation , darkness, light. Up , down. Sin, righteousness. Sin didn't arrive of its own accord. Sin was. God's law determined the parameters of human behavior that is sinful , sin-filled, first. God's law was initiated in the garden. When he told the first of our kind, thou shalt not..... He cannot be said to be sovereign, omniscient, if someone then argues, God never imagined Eve would eat of the tree forbidden her. THe forbidden that was planted there as fruit leading to damnation, by the creator that permitted the serpent to enter paradise. Making it not so, when evil could slither in by God's will. That the serpent, the antithesis of God, did enter in means paradise garden was paradise by God's definition and design. It set the whole thing in motion. The battle between darkness and light. Good and Evil. And that, as God tells us in his own words in Isaiah, is himself. Isaiah 45:7-8.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by WalkingMyFishLikeABoss

[warrior12]

On 7/10/2017 at 3:35 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I believe in free will:

You are free to choose to do what you want to do,
but you are not free to choose what it is, that you want to do,
nor are you necessarily able, to do what you choose to do!

Thanks!

As i have said before. There are enough scripture on both sides so that a healthy discussion can be had.  The scripture verse below is on that strikes me as something to ponder long. 

I have always read this verse with a view of one of an invitation and strong words that the doer must act to receive a reward.  Salvation ?. There are quite a few phrases here that action is necessary from the hearer to receive the promise.

Revelation 3  King James Version (KJV)

²⁰ Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Edited July 16, 2017 by warrior12

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/15/2017 at 9:02 PM, Cletus said:

  In genesis we can find there was two trees in the midst of the garden.  In Deuteronomy God says He sets before us life and death, blessing and cursing.  He even gives instruction to choose good and life.  In every choice in life its life or death.  Its up to us to say yes Lord... or no.  And even if no, God is sovereign.  

God gives us the ability to choose. 

There is a difference though. Adam and Eve, were not created with the taint of sin. They lived in a perfect, pre-curse environment. They had God, in their midst, without the separation of death, that was their state, when they died.

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

I submit that these difference, make applying their situation to mankind after the fall, not applicable. Our ability to choose, could well be different, than their ability was. I have a fallen nature, I was born a slave to sin, they were not.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/16/2017 at 9:08 AM, warrior12 said:

²⁰ Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Yes, that is worthy pondering. Somethng else to ponder, if scripture says, that unbelievers are deaf, and it does, if scripture says the Jesus' sheep, hear His voice, and it does . . . 

 . . . do we have reason to wonder in the verse you cited, that every man can hear His voice? Or, does the "IF any man hear", actually mean something? Perhaps, only elect, only those God has chosen, can and will hear His voice!

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/16/2017 at 1:59 PM, Sojourner414 said:

Since Adam named all the animals that God created, him and Eve could reason, and God was able to give them instructions that they could understand (and therefore disobey), I would have to say that man did have an intellect. Scripture records that God "created Man in His own image", and we know God is not exactly an idiot.

I would go beyond that, and say that Adam and Eve, were not initially damaged, they likely had intellect, superior to any human since then, apart from Jesus!

[Omegaman 3.0]

I would like to take this opportunity, to say, that although this topic as gone off course a little into other aspects of what some call Calvinism, not just free will as I was suggesting it exists, Calvinism aside . . . 

. . . that you all have been doing a wonderful job of being kind, respectful, and calm in expressing your beliefs and perspectives. Thank you so much for that, it is refreshing to see such maturity, that is often lost in other threads with controversial topics.

Again, thank you!

[warrior12]

22 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yes, that is worthy pondering. Somethng else to ponder, if scripture says, that unbelievers are deaf, and it does, if scripture says the Jesus' sheep, hear His voice, and it does . . . 

 . . . do we have reason to wonder in the verse you cited, that every man can hear His voice? Or, does the "IF any man hear", actually mean something. Perhaps, only elect, only those God has chosen, can and will hear His voice!

Well if the word" IF" is used in the context that you mentioned ,  then the Bible would have to be read in a whole different light of interpretation.   

If we look at the preceding verse and the following verse then it cannot be the elect he is referring to.

 

¹⁹ As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

²¹ To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.