Gradual fulfillment of Revelation?

[Reinitin]

47 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I think, simply put, the seven letters speak to the spreading of the gospel worldwide and that is considered "what is".

Jesus said that the gospel of the kingdom would be preached worldwide, then the end would come (Matthew 24:14).  I see this as fulfilled and coinciding with the time of the Gentiles ending.  Jesus also said that Jerusalem would be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled (Luke 21:24).  Jerusalem is no longer being trampled by Gentiles.

So if the "what is" is completed then we are into the things that will take place afterwords; the opening of the seven seals.  Personally, I see the first seal as opened.

i agree

[Reinitin]

12 hours ago, Blueyedjewel said:

John was being shown the future.  Christ comes in the air (does not touch his feet on the earth) and then he comes at the end when he brings back the saints in the last battle. When we see the signs mentioned in the scriptures I listed but did not write out, we know Christ coming is near. All of the seals,bowls and trumpets are wrath. The church is not appointed to wrath. None righteous have ever been left to suffer WRATH. ie Noah and his family, lot and his family, Moses and the isrealites (in the passover account in exodus). 

"The pattern and typology of the Rapture is present. The believers are warned by God that a judgment is coming and they are specifically spared the judgment. God commanded the Israelites to put the blood on their doorposts and stay behind their doors and not to come out. Just as it was with Noah and with the Apostle John a door was symbolic of being kept safe during a time of judgment. And as it will be with the Rapture, the believers are saved, suffering no harm, while the unbelievers suffer God’s wrath."

"As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man."http://beginningandend.com/believers-escape-gods-wrath-biblical-foreshadows-rapture/

I can provide you with the details of the seals,bowls, and trumpets if the OP gives me the go ahead. I dont think this thread is necessarily about all that and I dont want to derail the topic. 

 

Blessings  

 

Does Babylon fall once or twice?

Revelation 14:8 and Revelation 18:2 both state that Babylon is fallen.  If it fell in chapter 14, and Revelation is chronological, did it get rebuilt before chapter 18 so it could fall again?  Did it fall twice or are there simply two accounts of this event?

If some of these prophetic events only happen once then we know the vials, seals and trumps are all hapening at the same time or it falls into the eclesiactic rule of nothing new under the sun "history repeats itself"? Is John over laping Satans wrath on the saints and Gods wrath? Are we as saints involved in Satans Wrath but promised we wont have the affliction of Gods wrath?

[ByTheSpirit]

13 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

 

Does Babylon fall once or twice?

Revelation 14:8 and Revelation 18:2 both state that Babylon is fallen.  If it fell in chapter 14, and Revelation is chronological, did it get rebuilt before chapter 18 so it could fall again?  Did it fall twice or are there simply two accounts of this event?

If some of these prophetic events only happen once then we know the vials, seals and trumps are all hapening at the same time or it falls into the eclesiactic rule of nothing new under the sun "history repeats itself"? Is John over laping Satans wrath on the saints and Gods wrath? Are we as saints involved in Satans Wrath but promised we wont have the affliction of Gods wrath?

I always thought the vials, seals, and trumpets are intermingled with each other.  I know the language of a couple sentences might suggest otherwise but they all end in almost identical manners.

 

I also view the book of Revelation after chapter three to be a series of recurring visions that God grants John but only from different perspectives.

[Reinitin]

Then we have the great earth quake also propicied in Eziekel 38.

Is there one Earthquake or five?

Revelation 6:12, Revelation 8:5, Revelation 11:13, Revelation 11:19, and Revelation 16:18 all record an earthquake or a great earthquake.  Is there really 5 earthquakes or just one with several accounts of it?

So once again we have to ask Has John written 3 accounts of one time line or is history repeating itself through the church age? The earthquake is from a vial, a seal and a trumpet blast

Edited August 6, 2017 by Reinitin

[Guest]

Here is a timeline for your consideration.  Use it as a guide to study. Pray on it .  I am not interested in debating this because I have studied the end time prophecies for many years and there is simply no other interpretation that is "well with my spirit".  People get really passionate about their views about this time that is very soon to come.  I do not have a desire to contend on this subject . It is not what is extremely important to me. I do think it is important because those who are looking for the antichrist before Christ have no blessed hope! They do not understand who they are IN CHRIST . They do not understand how the LORD "keeps those who are his". Were Noah ,Lot, Moses and Israelites annihilated along with the wicked? NO. They were "kept".

It does make me sad that there are those who have no idea Gods heart for his precious jewels. Some err in thinking a tribulation will make their robes purified.  I dont know about you but I have been in the fire since the day Christ justified me and saved me! The molding process started the day I was converted. I am not appointed to wrath! Spreading the gospel and defending the faith is what I tend to get deeply involved in!  But I did want to leave this for you. It is excellent study material.

This timeline is from a man whom I met on another site. Google ahwatukee and you will find him. He has studied for over 40 yrs about this end time coming very soon! He is  well versed, demonstrates humility and much good fruit .If he were here, he would debate you all day long. He is a better teacher. I have no desire in doing so. I just wanted you to have this timeline. My gift to you! 

 I am convinced my Lord and savior will "harpazo" ( 1 thess 4: 15-18) me from the time of wrath. All throughout biblical history ,God has demonstrated that he removes the righteous before WRATH. The  TRUE church has the "blessed hope"(Titus 2:13) . The church of philadelphia is promised to be "kept from" Gods WRATH. Why? Because God doesnt appoint his remnant to "a time like none other" ie matthew 24:21.   Gods remnant are his precious jewels. [Reference > jewels> zachariah 9:16 ] Blessed be the name of the LORD!! 

Revelation 3:10-11

¹⁰ Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

¹¹ Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

 

Zeph.1-1-3 - I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,"

Isa.13:12 - "I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir"

=================================================

These are just two of the references regarding the day of the Lord, which will involve the entire world and which is still future and which will take place leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. And the following is the way in which he will accomplish his coming wrath:

1st Seal - Rider on the white horse = antichrist

2nd Seal - Rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other

3rd Seal - Rider on the black horse = world-wide famine represented by the fact that a small amount of food will cost a days wages.

4th Seal - Pale green horse = Death and Hades who are given power over earth to kill a fourth of the worlds population via war, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a four would equal approx. 1.7 billion people at the beginning of that last seven year period.

5th Seal - Results in no fatalities

6th Seal - A great earthquake, Sun darkened, moon turned blood red and heaven opened like a scroll and the announcement that "the great day of God's wrath has begun," which includes everything that had previously taken place, as well as what is still to come.

7Th Seal - Preparation for the seven trumpets. No fatalities result directly from this seal

=====================================

1st Trumpet - A third of the earth is burned up, a third of the trees, plants and all green grass.

2nd Trumpet - A asteroid or meteor hits one of the oceans and kills all of the creatures in that body of water equaling a third over all the earth. Likewise, all of the ships in that body of water are destroyed equaling a third of all the ships on the earth. This will happen because of the giant 1500 to 2000 plus foot waves that will be the result of that asteroid/meteor hitting in that body of water. What is not mentioned are all of the coastal and cities inland that will be completely destroyed by those same waves. Except instead of 35ft waves like Japan's Tsunami, these will be 1500 plus ft and will go a hundred plus miles inland.

Starting to get the picture of God's wrath now ? No? Ok here is the comes the rest of it.

3rd Trumpet - John describes something like a star, like a giant torch, which he called "wormwood," which falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water. And many people will die from drinking the water.

4th Trumpet - The sun, moon and stars are stuck by God causing them to be darkened by a third. The result being that the earth will be receiving a third less light both night and day. There are no fatalities related to this trumpet. But, I believe that it is setting the tone for the next three trumpets, which are referred to as "Woes." And the reason that they are called "Woes" is because they are all demonic in nature.

5th Trumpet/ 1st Woe - A star, symbolic for an angel, falls from heaven to the earth having the key to the Abyss, which he opens. Out from the Abyss come demonic beings that have the appearance of locusts, looking like horses prepared for battle, they have hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth and faces like human faces and tails with stingers like that of a scorpion. They have one purpose and that is to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months with the sting like that of a scorpion. They have a king over them who is the angel of the Abyss, who is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss. He is the same beast who will kill the two witnesses and will control the antichrist. No fatalities here, for scripture states that people will try to die, but death will flee away.

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe - Four evil angels who, at the writing of this post, are bound at the great river Euphrates, will be released by that angel who sounds the 6th trumpet and they will gather 200 million demonic beings and will kill a third of mankind. Combining the fatalities of the 4th seal and the fatalities here at the 6th Trumpet, the number would equal approx. 4.5 billion people dead before the middle of the seven years. But that is not including the fatalities that will result from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Trumpets nor the fatalities as result of the seven bowl judgment. Now go back to the top of this post and reread the prophecy of Zephaniah and Isaiah. Any light bulbs going on?

7th Trumpet/3rd Woe - Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven at the middle mark of the seven years and restricted to the earth, which elicits the following response:

"rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you!He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

Did you notice the 3rd woe in the first part of the verse? At that time, Satan and his angels will be able to focus their full malice upon the earth.

====================================

1st Bowl - The angel pours his bowl out on the earth and painful, ugly, sores break out on the people who worship the beast and receive his mark on their hand or forehead.

2nd Bowl - The angel pours his bowl out on the sea and it turns into literal blood

3rd Bowl - the angel pours out his bowl on all of the rivers and fresh drinking water and they turn into literal blood. The only water not turned into blood is the Euphrates River and that so it can be dried up to make way for the kings of the east. No salt water to desalinate and no fresh drinking water.

4th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl on the sun so that the sun scorches the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. And, there's no water to drink and no ocean water to jump into. How many fatalities will result from this?

5th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl on the throne of the beast plunging it into spiritual darkness. The people will gnaw their tongues in anguish because of the pains and their sores and instead of repenting and asking God for mercy, they curse him.

6th bowl - Three demonic beings that emerge from the dragon, beast and false prophet go throughout the entire earth to gather the kings and their armies for battle at Armageddon, where they will all be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds form Christ's mouth, which is symbolic for the word of God.

7th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl into the air and the greatest earthquake to hit the earth since mankind has been on it hits, which results in the cities of the nations collapsing, and the mountains and the islands disappear, and giant hail stones weighing from 75 to 100 lbs. world-wide.

 

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

 

Nothing May Be Added
Rev22:18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from thewords of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holycity, which are described in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!…

 

Praise the Lord! Our redeemer is coming soon!

Maranantha! Maranantha!! 

Blessings  

[Daniel 11:36]

"I also view the book of Revelation after chapter three to be a series of recurring visions that God grants John but only from different perspectives"

 

This is the proper interpretation going forth from chapter 4 .... the Lord's coming tribulation, which is presented with various repeating details in a number of cases

At the same time Revelation gives the overall perspective of the tribulation from start to finish

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Reinitin said:

 

Does Babylon fall once or twice?

Revelation 14:8 and Revelation 18:2 both state that Babylon is fallen.  If it fell in chapter 14, and Revelation is chronological, did it get rebuilt before chapter 18 so it could fall again?  Did it fall twice or are there simply two accounts of this event?

If some of these prophetic events only happen once then we know the vials, seals and trumps are all hapening at the same time or it falls into the eclesiactic rule of nothing new under the sun "history repeats itself"? Is John over laping Satans wrath on the saints and Gods wrath? Are we as saints involved in Satans Wrath but promised we wont have the affliction of Gods wrath?

The tribulation is Gods wrath and not satans. God uses satan as one of his tools. We saints have the blessed hope. We are not appointed to wrath

[ByTheSpirit]

42 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Here is a timeline for your consideration.  Use it as a guide to study. Pray on it .  I am not interested in debating this because I have studied the end time prophecies for many years and there is simply no other interpretation that is "well with my spirit".  People get really passionate about their views about this time that is very soon to come.  I do not have a desire to contend on this subject . It is not what is extremely important to me. I do think it is important because those who are looking for the antichrist before Christ have no blessed hope! They do not understand who they are IN CHRIST . They do not understand how the LORD "keeps those who are his". Were Noah ,Lot, Moses and Israelites annihilated along with the wicked? NO. They were "kept".

It does make me sad that there are those who have no idea Gods heart for his precious jewels. Some err in thinking a tribulation will make their robes purified.  I dont know about you but I have been in the fire since the day Christ justified me and saved me! The molding process started the day I was converted. I am not appointed to wrath! Spreading the gospel and defending the faith is what I tend to get deeply involved in!  But I did want to leave this for you. It is excellent study material.

This timeline is from a man whom I met on another site. Google ahwatukee and you will find him. He has studied for over 40 yrs about this end time coming very soon! He is  well versed, demonstrates humility and much good fruit .If he were here, he would debate you all day long. He is a better teacher. I have no desire in doing so. I just wanted you to have this timeline. My gift to you! 

 I am convinced my Lord and savior will "harpazo" ( 1 thess 4: 15-18) me from the time of wrath. All throughout biblical history ,God has demonstrated that he removes the righteous before WRATH. The  TRUE church has the "blessed hope"(Titus 2:13) . The church of philadelphia is promised to be "kept from" Gods WRATH. Why? Because God doesnt appoint his remnant to "a time like none other" ie matthew 24:21.   Gods remnant are his precious jewels. [Reference > jewels> zachariah 9:16 ] Blessed be the name of the LORD!! 

Revelation 3:10-11

¹⁰ Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

¹¹ Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

 

Zeph.1-1-3 - I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,"

Isa.13:12 - "I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir"

=================================================

These are just two of the references regarding the day of the Lord, which will involve the entire world and which is still future and which will take place leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. And the following is the way in which he will accomplish his coming wrath:

1st Seal - Rider on the white horse = antichrist

2nd Seal - Rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other

3rd Seal - Rider on the black horse = world-wide famine represented by the fact that a small amount of food will cost a days wages.

4th Seal - Pale green horse = Death and Hades who are given power over earth to kill a fourth of the worlds population via war, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a four would equal approx. 1.7 billion people at the beginning of that last seven year period.

5th Seal - Results in no fatalities

6th Seal - A great earthquake, Sun darkened, moon turned blood red and heaven opened like a scroll and the announcement that "the great day of God's wrath has begun," which includes everything that had previously taken place, as well as what is still to come.

7Th Seal - Preparation for the seven trumpets. No fatalities result directly from this seal

=====================================

1st Trumpet - A third of the earth is burned up, a third of the trees, plants and all green grass.

2nd Trumpet - A asteroid or meteor hits one of the oceans and kills all of the creatures in that body of water equaling a third over all the earth. Likewise, all of the ships in that body of water are destroyed equaling a third of all the ships on the earth. This will happen because of the giant 1500 to 2000 plus foot waves that will be the result of that asteroid/meteor hitting in that body of water. What is not mentioned are all of the coastal and cities inland that will be completely destroyed by those same waves. Except instead of 35ft waves like Japan's Tsunami, these will be 1500 plus ft and will go a hundred plus miles inland.

Starting to get the picture of God's wrath now ? No? Ok here is the comes the rest of it.

3rd Trumpet - John describes something like a star, like a giant torch, which he called "wormwood," which falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water. And many people will die from drinking the water.

4th Trumpet - The sun, moon and stars are stuck by God causing them to be darkened by a third. The result being that the earth will be receiving a third less light both night and day. There are no fatalities related to this trumpet. But, I believe that it is setting the tone for the next three trumpets, which are referred to as "Woes." And the reason that they are called "Woes" is because they are all demonic in nature.

5th Trumpet/ 1st Woe - A star, symbolic for an angel, falls from heaven to the earth having the key to the Abyss, which he opens. Out from the Abyss come demonic beings that have the appearance of locusts, looking like horses prepared for battle, they have hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth and faces like human faces and tails with stingers like that of a scorpion. They have one purpose and that is to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months with the sting like that of a scorpion. They have a king over them who is the angel of the Abyss, who is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss. He is the same beast who will kill the two witnesses and will control the antichrist. No fatalities here, for scripture states that people will try to die, but death will flee away.

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe - Four evil angels who, at the writing of this post, are bound at the great river Euphrates, will be released by that angel who sounds the 6th trumpet and they will gather 200 million demonic beings and will kill a third of mankind. Combining the fatalities of the 4th seal and the fatalities here at the 6th Trumpet, the number would equal approx. 4.5 billion people dead before the middle of the seven years. But that is not including the fatalities that will result from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Trumpets nor the fatalities as result of the seven bowl judgment. Now go back to the top of this post and reread the prophecy of Zephaniah and Isaiah. Any light bulbs going on?

7th Trumpet/3rd Woe - Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven at the middle mark of the seven years and restricted to the earth, which elicits the following response:

"rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you!He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

Did you notice the 3rd woe in the first part of the verse? At that time, Satan and his angels will be able to focus their full malice upon the earth.

====================================

1st Bowl - The angel pours his bowl out on the earth and painful, ugly, sores break out on the people who worship the beast and receive his mark on their hand or forehead.

2nd Bowl - The angel pours his bowl out on the sea and it turns into literal blood

3rd Bowl - the angel pours out his bowl on all of the rivers and fresh drinking water and they turn into literal blood. The only water not turned into blood is the Euphrates River and that so it can be dried up to make way for the kings of the east. No salt water to desalinate and no fresh drinking water.

4th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl on the sun so that the sun scorches the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. And, there's no water to drink and no ocean water to jump into. How many fatalities will result from this?

5th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl on the throne of the beast plunging it into spiritual darkness. The people will gnaw their tongues in anguish because of the pains and their sores and instead of repenting and asking God for mercy, they curse him.

6th bowl - Three demonic beings that emerge from the dragon, beast and false prophet go throughout the entire earth to gather the kings and their armies for battle at Armageddon, where they will all be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds form Christ's mouth, which is symbolic for the word of God.

7th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl into the air and the greatest earthquake to hit the earth since mankind has been on it hits, which results in the cities of the nations collapsing, and the mountains and the islands disappear, and giant hail stones weighing from 75 to 100 lbs. world-wide.

 

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

 

Nothing May Be Added
Rev22:18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from thewords of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holycity, which are described in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!…

 

Praise the Lord! Our redeemer is coming soon!

Maranantha! Maranantha!! 

Blessings  

I can not agree.  You said you have *no interest in debating so I will only add one remark.

 

You said, or rather he said, "Those looking for the antichrist before Christ have no blessed hope." That is a ridiculous thing to say on a number of levels.

 

I for one believe the AntiChrist comes before Jesus does and I am full of hope in Jesus.  Why?  Because my faith is in Jesus no matter what may happen, not in me being removed from the planet before God does his thing.  So to state people who don't align with a pretrib rapture have no blessed hope is unbiblical, wrong, and a flat out lie.

 

secondly explain such a statement in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.  Paul very plainly states that the Lord Jesus will not return, we will not be gathered, nor will the Day of the Lord come until two things happen: the great apostasy, and the revelation of the Anti-Christ.

 

If you want to respond you are welcome to, but it is highly advisable to not put such broad statement such out there and then make accusations or condemnations without solid proof of being correct. Those who do not hold to your belief on the topic are not condemned for such, and usually such statements are the individuals attempt to safeguard or intimidate a follower to uncompromising belief.

Edited August 6, 2017 by ByTheSpirit
Typo on the * sorry

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, ByTheSpirit said:

I can not agree.  You said you have interest in debating so I will only add one remark.

 

You said, or rather he said, "Those looking for the antichrist before Christ have no blessed hope." That is a ridiculous thing to say on a number of levels.

 

I for one believe the AntiChrist comes before Jesus does and I am full of hope in Jesus.  Why?  Because my faith is in Jesus no matter what may happen, not in me being removed from the planet before God does his thing.  So to state people who don't align with a pretrib rapture have no blessed hope is unbiblical, wrong, and a flat out lie.

 

secondly explain such a statement in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.  Paul very plainly states that the Lord Jesus will not return, we will not be gathered, nor will the Day of the Lord come until two things happen: the great apostasy, and the revelation of the Anti-Christ.

 

If you want to respond you are welcome to, but it is highly advisable to not put such broad statement such out there and then make accusations or condemnations without solid proof of being correct. Those who do not hold to your belief on the topic are not condemned for such, and usually such statements are the individuals attempt to safeguard or intimidate a follower to uncompromising belief.

I dont care to debate this. I wont. 

But,  I will say this; I never condemned anyone. Do not bear false witness against me!!   

This is exactly why I wont debate this. You have already "put words in my mouth".

Learn to talk to people with charity and you will fare better. 

 The heart of the wise makes his speech judicious and adds persuasiveness to his lips. (Proverbs 16:23 

[Guest]

God removes his people. It is his pattern.

Baby Jesus,removed before Judgement.
Lot removed
Noah removed into the ark (a type of heaven)
The church removed.
"one taken,one left" = half the church removed
5 wise virgins removed,5 left to suffer.
Jerusalem burned in 70 ad and not one christian dies. Why? because they weren't there. they removed themselves PREJUDGEMENT
There is zero evidence God returns post judgment or mid trib to deliver his people. Man,men,and doctrines,made up the post judgement deliverance.

It's like a man who sees a thug stetting fire to his house,but trusting in praying to save his children while he watches it burn.
So insane.Anyone can see the insanity in that. Any sane person simple ushers the children out of the house.

God is loving towards the righteous. He will keep those who have their eyes on the prize. 
 Last days deception is rampant. Satan wants the church to believe that God will not "keep" his own. 

2 Timothy 2:15