2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

[frienduff thaylorde]

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 6:58 PM, OldCoot said:

Error, mistake, false, etc.  But not necessarily a lie.  A lie is when someone knows what they are saying is false and are intentionally trying to deceive others.  Regarding this issue, that cannot be said with certainty.  On all sides, there are those that passionately believe what they are espousing.  But not everyone is correct, obviously.  That doesn't mean those that are wrong are lying.  You are trying to demean others by making accusations that you have no basis to make.  That is violating the 9th commandment, whether you choose to accept that or not.

There are many Bible expositors that I greatly admire that don't hold the same positions on every issue I do.  But I would never call them liars.  I think they are mistaken on some things.

Yeah todays physcology would say satan was mistaken on a few things too he made errors..........but he should not be called a liar.

Look.  I don't call just everyone who says something a liar.   but still if it contradicts truth, THE TRUTH is , ITS a LIE.   we have to keep it simple.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

You obviously need another course in english reading comprehension.  Will try to get it across again.... Not everyone is correct, some folks do have some or all aspects of the issue in error.  But, Just because someone is wrong or in error, doesn't mean they are lying, or maliciously trying to deceive someone.  

 

Exactly!  You do not have the foundation to say they did something, though they may be in error.  Bearing false witness is making accusations about someone that is not true.  Just because you feel someone is in error, you have no foundation to make the accusation they are lying, which I repeat, lying is an act of maliciously trying to deceive.  It is an act of willful intent by a person knowing full well what they are saying is not true and they are trying to obfuscate the truth from others.   To accuse someone of such a thing without knowing the motivation of their heart, and proclaiming it to others, by default is bearing false witness.  And that is indeed lying on the part of the accuser.  And that is what slander and libel is all about.

I see the problem. I did miss the entirety of your quote and you are right, just because a person is wrong does not make them a liar; Truth. But that ain't the case here. And it's not a false witness. You took my words out of context. Here's what I said, "One position certainly is a fantasy as two opposing conclusions based on the same set of facts cannot both be correct. This is the real problem with the Christian church. So many believers just go with what ever makes them feel good concerning scripture. Pre trib is a good example of this. It removes all the fear. And it's a lie" I attacked an ideology as false and did not bring an ad hominem attack. I try to refrain from that as much as possible. But even that doesn't matter, a lie is a lie no matter the motivation. And those who promote the lie? Are you saying that after a few hundred years and thousands of authors and millions of hours of study it's all just a simple error? Just a misjudgment? On the part of all the apologists? 

And I certainly can say they did something, even if it is a simple error I can still call it out as such, and have the duty to do so. I was raised in the pretrib camp from early teens. The mistake i made was to look in scripture for confirmation of what all the teachers like Lindsay and Missler were saying. I didn't find any evidence of a pretrib rapture. I could see a post trib rapture, or a Jesus appearing gathering of the elect to be more precise. I wondered why these titans of pretrib ignored Matt 24 and the timeline of Jesus. Just an error I suppose. Not possible it was deliberately left out of the narrative. So they did something alright. And it hasn't changed in 4 decades. It's a glaring omission and after all this time it's hard to fathom a simple error.

And again. I didn't call anyone a liar. I called a position or ideology a lie. Not the same. I'm not even bearing false witness against said ideology as I post the biblical facts to prove the opposition false.

You are in error.

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

I think this is a convolution. Great tribulation and the coming of Jesus and the gathering are not the same thing. Just what is Paul talking about in 2 Thess 2? There is no oblique reference if the entire text is employed discerning the truth.

2 Thess

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The question here concerns the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of us to Him. Both events forever linked in time/space. Paul says that day had not come no matter what rumors were floating about. Paul now says when the day (Jesus coming AND the gathering) will occur.  The man of sin and the son of perdition are the same person in a normal reading. The fact that this person is now prophesied to, "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." means this is the beast/AC and both "the man of sin, the son of perdition," are descriptions of the one person that will sit in the Temple declaring himself god. 

And even if this is two different people, the beast and the false prophet say, Jesus appearance and the gathering only occurs after this revealing and taking a seat in the Temple.

Now the same context exists in the next passage:

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

This means the beast is the "what is restraining". "Now you know what is restraining", directly after the explanation of timing for the appearance of Jesus and the gathering. More accurately, the events of the revealing of the beast, sitting in the Temple, declaring himself god, and exalting himself have to occur before Jesus appears and we are gathered to him.

Witness this study concerning the OP and 2 Thess 2:7.

Greek:

μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται.

Transliterated Greek:

...monon arti kateco heos ginomai ek mesos

 

KJV:                 only       he who now       letteth        [will let],

Literal Greek:  Merely      just now        hold fast        until.

 

KJV :                  until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Literal Greek:     until               to emerge           from out of         in the midst.

"Only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way" makes sense in light of this.

The beast is what is restraining the coming of Jesus until the beast is revealed. This all fits in with the revealing of the beast at the midpoint or, "emerges in the midst" is the last week.

Consider:

 

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage of men appearing in public to be made, finished of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made

‘Mesos’ (the way)

Definition

middle the midst in the midst of, amongst

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2^nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2^nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

 

 

 

Exactly.  people have been led so astray they cant even comprehend that simple thing.

THE DAY paul was speaking of , GO look at the beginning ,  HE , paul, says now CONCERNING THE LORD HIS COMING OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM

now read everything in between.  THEN LOOK at verse seven.  SO NOW you KNOW what STILL WITHOLDS< what must happen

BEFORE JESUS RETURNS , TO Ya KNOW DESTORY THE SON OF PERDTION AT HIS COMIN G.    PEOPLE ITS A ONE TIME EVENT

only we had better be dug into Christ lest that day overtake us as it will many AS A THIEF.   ON that day IF we have CHRIST we escape the wrath of GOD, IF NOT

that day is wrath against us.   Its a one time event.   So now we all know what is left to occur BEFORE CHRIST returns.

God has not appointed us unto GODS WRATH , BUT HE SURE has appointed us UNTO TRIBULATIONS FROM MEN AND MAN.

read the whole letter.    TIS the righteous judgment of GOD , that ye may be counted worthy to suffer for the Kingdom.  WE are appointed unto TRIBULATION from man

JUST not the WRATH of GOD, so long as we remain in CHRIST that is.  IF not , the day of the LORD will be as wrath.

And we all need to heed this too.   WAKE UP peoples , wake up,   the FALLING away is beginning huge under the mindset of the all inclusive.

WHEN the world preaches their are many ways to God and its becoming a focus , that is one thing

when muslims , buddists and other false religons are buying into it that is one thing

BUT WHEN A SO CALLED CHRISTAIN CHURCH and churches ARE LEADING THE ALL INCLUSIVE INTEFIATH , THEN KNOW DELUSOIN OF STRONG NATURE HAS OCCURED.

what a betrayal to GOD.   Intefaith all inclusive aint leading squat to JESUS, its leading to HUMANITY above all religons , HUMANITY as one above all.

GEE........wonder who that is leading too.............AND he shall exalt himself above all gods , above GOD , above all....................

[Diaste]

27 minutes ago, Davida said:

Why on earth would you call the pretrib a "lie". It is a differing opinion from yours , that does not make it a "lie".

It's not just a different opinion. It's promoted as truth. I was taught to believe pretrib. Can't be found and scripture refutes any notion of pretrib categorically.  Since pretrib has no evidence of support in scripture and post trib/prewrath is supported by a great deal of scripture, pretrib is incorrect. Since it's promoted as scriptural truth and is not, the ideology is a lie.

[Diaste]

25 minutes ago, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

You ain't see nothing yet. 

Matthew24:21

For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equalled again.

Most of the human race will be killed; 90+% easily.

 

 

You still are not answering the question. "If the church restrained evil then why is so much evil alive and well on earth today? "

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

6 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You still are not answering the question. "If the church restrained evil then why is so much evil alive and well on earth today? "

I didn't say it restrains ALL evil. The verse just says it is the restrainer, it doesn't specify that it is restraining all evil or even what percentage of evil.  When Jesus returns it says he'll rule with an iron rod, there won't be much evil then I can assure you.  

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You still are not answering the question. "If the church restrained evil then why is so much evil alive and well on earth today? "

The one who restrains.     restrains what .       I think most don't get what paul was saying and WHOSE DAY paul was talking about.

what restrains THE COMING OF CHRIST . in other words..............this son of perdtion must FIRST COME and do his wicked work, THEN COMETH THE DAY OF THE LORD

to wipe him out .   I never sat and learned this from any man.  by grace alone i just love to read the bible  .  the more we read and love truth, the more we will be made wise

unto salvation through faith in Christ .    I know the king james can be harder to understand for some.   but God will always reveal what we need to know WHEN we need to know.

we just must be humble and desire knowledge , charity, wisdom, NOT TO LOOOK WISE , but just so we walk as we ought to walk .

See, the thing is, most sat under mens teachings and these men to make it make sense they had to go find verses to fit THIER BELIEF

ME , i just simply read and let the TRUTH reveal itself .  many men have read the bible to fit their own personal belief, and they went and found scrips

to twist to fit THEIR OWN IDEA.    THAT IS THE PROBLEM

and its WHY i keep saying to one and all.  YA READ the bible FOR YOURSELF , SEEK GOD , LET HIM reveal the truth, and not what we THINK is TRUTH.

not what man has said IS TRUTH.   just read it for YOURSELVES people.    i know some who believe in pretrib and i see a few who love truth.

SO DO THIS...................just read it for yourself , read it as a whole , just love it and i promise the truth on this subject IN TIME will be made clear.

really read and just love the truth.  I have heard of three teachings about tribulation, pre, mid post.............I Know hardly squat about any.

I JUST read the words of GOD and let the spirit reveal.  SO please don't believe i believe the way that some who may teach post or mid DO.

I JUST am saying what i have learned.     my advice stands.  READ the bible for yourselves.    just start afresh and do it , its pages contain words sweeter than honey to the taste.

[Diaste]

5 minutes ago, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

I didn't say it restrains ALL evil. The verse just says it is the restrainer, it doesn't specify that it is restraining all evil or even what percentage of evil.  When Jesus returns it says he'll rule with an iron rod, there won't be much evil then I can assure you.  

Thanks for clarifying. But there is no restrainer in the context you propose.

2 Thess

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The question here concerns the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of us to Him. Both events forever linked in time/space. Paul says that day had not come no matter what rumors were floating about. Paul now says when the day (Jesus coming AND the gathering) will occur.  The man of sin and the son of perdition are the same person in a normal reading. The fact that this person is now prophesied to, "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." means this is the beast/AC and both "the man of sin, the son of perdition," are descriptions of the one person that will sit in the Temple declaring himself god. 

And even if this is two different people, the beast and the false prophet say, Jesus appearance and the gathering only occurs after this revealing and taking a seat in the Temple.

Now the same context exists in the next passage:

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

This means the beast is the "what is restraining". "Now you know what is restraining", directly after the explanation of timing for the appearance of Jesus and the gathering. More accurately, the events of the revealing of the beast, sitting in the Temple, declaring himself god, and exalting himself have to occur before Jesus appears and we are gathered to him.

Witness this study concerning the OP and 2 Thess 2:7.

Greek:

μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται.

Transliterated Greek:

...monon arti kateco heos ginomai ek mesos

 

KJV:                 only       he who now       letteth        [will let],

Literal Greek:  Merely      just now        hold fast        until.

 

KJV :                  until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Literal Greek:     until               to emerge           from out of         in the midst.

"Only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way" makes sense in light of this.

The beast is what is restraining the coming of Jesus until the beast is revealed. This all fits in with the revealing of the beast at the midpoint or, "emerges in the midst" is the last week.

Consider:

 

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage of men appearing in public to be made, finished of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made

‘Mesos’ (the way)

Definition

middle the midst in the midst of, amongst

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2^nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2^nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

[frienduff thaylorde]

4 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Thanks for clarifying. But there is no restrainer in the context you propose.

2 Thess

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The question here concerns the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of us to Him. Both events forever linked in time/space. Paul says that day had not come no matter what rumors were floating about. Paul now says when the day (Jesus coming AND the gathering) will occur.  The man of sin and the son of perdition are the same person in a normal reading. The fact that this person is now prophesied to, "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." means this is the beast/AC and both "the man of sin, the son of perdition," are descriptions of the one person that will sit in the Temple declaring himself god. 

And even if this is two different people, the beast and the false prophet say, Jesus appearance and the gathering only occurs after this revealing and taking a seat in the Temple.

Now the same context exists in the next passage:

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

This means the beast is the "what is restraining". "Now you know what is restraining", directly after the explanation of timing for the appearance of Jesus and the gathering. More accurately, the events of the revealing of the beast, sitting in the Temple, declaring himself god, and exalting himself have to occur before Jesus appears and we are gathered to him.

Witness this study concerning the OP and 2 Thess 2:7.

Greek:

μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται.

Transliterated Greek:

...monon arti kateco heos ginomai ek mesos

 

KJV:                 only       he who now       letteth        [will let],

Literal Greek:  Merely      just now        hold fast        until.

 

KJV :                  until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Literal Greek:     until               to emerge           from out of         in the midst.

"Only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way" makes sense in light of this.

The beast is what is restraining the coming of Jesus until the beast is revealed. This all fits in with the revealing of the beast at the midpoint or, "emerges in the midst" is the last week.

Consider:

 

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage of men appearing in public to be made, finished of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made

‘Mesos’ (the way)

Definition

middle the midst in the midst of, amongst

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2^nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2^nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time

 

THIS is what most don't understand .        I hope this sinks in.    And now Church you KNOW what is restraining , that HE < CHRIST , may be revealed in his own time.

AKA.................he told the church what had to OCCUR before JESUS RETURNS.   PAUL did not begin the topic saying and now brethren we are here to talk about the DAY of ANTI CHRIST

HE SAID OUR GATHERING UNTO JESUS , THE DAY OF CHRIST .     this was wrote as a LETTER , not some hidden mystery we had to figure out , AS A LETTER.

IT says plainly NOW ya KNOW CHURCH , so Don't be decived as though the day of Christ is at hand,  THAT DAY WONT COME TILL ALL THIS COMES TO PASS.

read it .   JUST READ IT.............................

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time

 

THIS is what most don't understand .        I hope this sinks in.    And now Church you KNOW what is restraining , that HE < CHRIST , may be revealed in his own time.

AKA.................he told the church what had to OCCUR before JESUS RETURNS.   PAUL did not begin the topic saying and now brethren we are here to talk about the DAY of ANTI CHRIST

HE SAID OUR GATHERING UNTO JESUS , THE DAY OF CHRIST .     this was wrote as a LETTER , not some hidden mystery we had to figure out , AS A LETTER.

IT says plainly NOW ya KNOW CHURCH , so Don't be decived as though the day of Christ is at hand,  THAT DAY WONT COME TILL ALL THIS COMES TO PASS.

read it .   JUST READ IT.............................

you are absolutely correct.