Spiritual or Physical Death

[Running Gator]

20 hours ago, JohnD said:

Uh, I don't know if this was answered or not, but this is physical death being referred to. The "day" you eat of it you shall "surely die" is subjective on both quoted points.

1. Day can mean era in scripture. It can also refer to a day to God rather than a day to man and the scripture teaches that as day is as a thousand years to God (A&E lived only 927-ish years).

2. Surely die is in the Hebrew (if memory serves) "dying you shall die" which may simply mean the process of dying began on the 24 hour day they ate the forbidden fruit.

Thank JohnD.  I agree that those verses could mean what you suggest, I do not view them that way but I can see how people do. 

Quote

 

The ONLY scripture references I am currently aware of to "spiritual death" are Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8

"This IS the second death."

 

I think there are many more.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.  

The death spoken of here is not physical death as everyone dies a physical death, even those that have received the gift of eternal life. 

Eph 2:1  And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

This is speaking of being spiritually dead, not physically. 

John 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

Again, this is speaking of spiritual death, not physical as every sees physical death. 

[BobRyan]

On 9/5/2017 at 9:11 AM, Running Gator said:

In a different thread I made this comment..

Unless the death talked about in regards to the fall was spiritual death and not physical death

To which I was asked this...

Can you show scripture that even hints at that?

In an effort to keep that thread on topic, I have started this thread to post my answer. 

Here was my reply...

In Gen 2 and 3 there are a couple passes that hint at that. 

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They did not die physically in the day that they ate from the tree.

Gen 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.   

along with Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If there was no death engineered into creation as some suggest, why was there a tree in the garden that would allow whomever ate its fruit to live forever? 

Genesis 3

²² Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— ²³ therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. ²⁴ So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

[BobRyan]

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Right, but that is not what you're doing, here.   What you're doing is assuming the Tree of Life is figurative, and then you go hunting for Scripture to back up that assumption.  That is a very sloppy approach to God's word.

The problem with your exegesis, is that the Bible itself doesn't draw any connection between the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden and Jesus.  You are manufacturing a connection that simply doesn't exist. 

It's a false connection because the life that Jesus offers is eternal life.   The life that came from the tree of life was not eternal life.   Eternal life is a person, namely it is God Himself.  It is the very life of God and only God can offer that life.  

The tree of life did not give anyone the life of God.   The life offered by the tree of life would have doomed Adam in his fallen state, to live forever under the curse of sin.   So, what the tree of life offered was the ability to live forever, but not eternal life.   The tree of life in Genesis 3 was a real tree, not a figurative tree, like it or not.  The Bible doesn't treat it as anything other than a real tree.

I am just going to continue to trust in the Scriptures, as God means exactly what He says.

 

Agreed - the description is literal.

 

Literal Adam and Eve.

Literal eternal life

Literal God

Literal Tree

[Running Gator]

17 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Agreed - the description is literal.

 

Literal Adam and Eve.

Literal eternal life

Literal God

Literal Tree

I agree, a literal tree whose only stated purpose was to provide "fruit" that caused the eater to live forever. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Running Gator

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Right, but that is not what you're doing, here.   What you're doing is assuming the Tree of Life is figurative, and then you go hunting for Scripture to back up that assumption.  That is a very sloppy approach to God's word.

The problem with your exegesis, is that the Bible itself doesn't draw any connection between the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden and Jesus.  You are manufacturing a connection that simply doesn't exist. 

It's a false connection because the life that Jesus offers is eternal life.   The life that came from the tree of life was not eternal life.   Eternal life is a person, namely it is God Himself.  It is the very life of God and only God can offer that life.  

The tree of life did not give anyone the life of God.   The life offered by the tree of life would have doomed Adam in his fallen state, to live forever under the curse of sin.   So, what the tree of life offered was the ability to live forever, but not eternal life.   The tree of life in Genesis 3 was a real tree, not a figurative tree, like it or not.  The Bible doesn't treat it as anything other than a real tree.

I am just going to continue to trust in the Scriptures, as God means exactly what He says.

 

Hi Shiloh,

And you are assuming that the tree of life is real. Now where are your scriptures to back up your view? We cannot have one scripture alone as we can interpret how we like. The Holy Spirit says through the apostle Peter -

`...that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,..`  (2 Peter 1: 20)  ie. private - separate interpretation, it needs to fit in with all of scripture.

So where are your other scriptures to show that the tree of life is a real tree that gives life forever?

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, BobRyan said:

Agreed - the description is literal.

 

Literal Adam and Eve.

Literal eternal life

Literal God

Literal Tree

Hi Bob Ryan,

And where do you receive eternal life, from a tree? or from the Lord through His suffering on the cruel cross?

Marilyn.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

14 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,And you are assuming that the tree of life is real.

I am not assuming it is real.  The Bible presents it as real.  

Quote

Now where are your scriptures to back up your view?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(Gen 3:22-24)

That passage tells us it was a real tree.  There is nothing figurative about it.  Nothing there tells us that it was allegorical or metaphorical or anything.   You have tried to assign those kinds of values to it, but so far you have not shown anything from Scripture to back that up.  If anyone has something to prove, it is you, not me.   I am just taking God at His word.   I don't have to monkey around with the Scriptures to make something up.   I just take the Bible for what it says.

Quote

 

We cannot have one scripture alone as we can interpret how we like. The Holy Spirit says through the apostle Peter -

`...that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,..`  (2 Peter 1: 20)  ie. private - separate interpretation, it needs to fit in with all of scripture.

 

Actually, what Peter is saying is that no prophecy of Scripture is the product of the opinions, imaginations, thoughts, ideas or impulse of the prophets.  He goes on to say that Holy men spoke as they were led by the Holy Spirit.   The word "interpretation"  in the Greek is literally the word "opinion."   If you take that verse in its immediate context, Peter is defending the divine inspiration of Scripture and is making the case that we  have a more sure word of prophecy than eye witness on the mount of transfiguration where he heard the audible voice of God.    It has nothing to do with "interpretation"  in the sense of exegeting Scripture.

Quote

So where are your other scriptures to show that the tree of life is a real tree that gives life forever?

That is the only place where the Tree of Life in Garden of Eden is mentioned.   And it is presented to us as a real tree that would have doomed Adam to  being forever separated from God had he eaten of it.

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

I am not assuming it is real.  The Bible presents it as real.  

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(Gen 3:22-24)

That passage tells us it was a real tree.  There is nothing figurative about it.  Nothing there tells us that it was allegorical or metaphorical or anything.   You have tried to assign those kinds of values to it, but so far you have not shown anything from Scripture to back that up.  If anyone has something to prove, it is you, not me.   I am just taking God at His word.   I don't have to monkey around with the Scriptures to make something up.   I just take the Bible for what it says.

Actually, what Peter is saying is that no prophecy of Scripture is the product of the opinions, imaginations, thoughts, ideas or impulse of the prophets.  He goes on to say that Holy men spoke as they were led by the Holy Spirit.   The word "interpretation"  in the Greek is literally the word "opinion."   If you take that verse in its immediate context, Peter is defending the divine inspiration of Scripture and is making the case that we  have a more sure word of prophecy than eye witness on the mount of transfiguration where he heard the audible voice of God.    It has nothing to do with "interpretation"  in the sense of exegeting Scripture.

That is the only place where the Tree of Life in Garden of Eden is mentioned.   And it is presented to us as a real tree that would have doomed Adam to  being forever separated from God had he eaten of it.

 

 

 

Hi Shiloh,

What you are presenting to others is that a tree can give life forever, and that is against what scripture teaches, which is that the Lord Jesus Christ is THE ONLY ONE who gives life forever, no one, or anything else can - only the precious blood of Jesus that was slain for us sinners can give life -

`..the last Adam became a LIFE-GIVING spirit.` (1 Cor. 15: 45)

To say that a real tree can give life forever, is mysticism which is one step away from the occult. very dangerous teaching there, bro.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Shiloh,

All scripture is given by the Father to reveal His precious Son to us. Every aspect of creation is used to help us understand his glorious person, His character, and His purposes.

 

Here are a few examples -

 

`Lion, Lamb, bread of life, fountain of life, water of life, the sun, the morning star, the living stone, the rock, gem stones, the lily, the rose, fragrant aroma, the hen, the owl, the eagle, the pelican, the word, the Alpha & Omega, the logus, the root, the branch, the tree, the arche and telos, (the beginning and the end) etc etc`

 

In Roman ch. 11 we read -

 

`…you …became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree…..remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 11: 17 & 18)

`…the root is holy…`  (v. 16)

 

Here we see that we the Body of Christ receive our nourishment from the Lord, picturing it as receiving from the root of a tree!!!!!!

 

Marilyn.

 

[BobRyan]

10 hours ago, BobRyan said:

Genesis 3

²² Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— ²³ therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. ²⁴ So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

 - the description is literal.

Literal Adam and Eve.

Literal eternal life

Literal God

Literal Tree

Genesis 3

²² Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— ²³ therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. ²⁴ So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Bob Ryan,

And where do you receive eternal life, from a tree? or from the Lord through His suffering on the cruel cross?

Marilyn.

 

Hi Marilyn

 

You mean -- Now that we no longer have the Tree of Life on earth?

Where do you think the Tree of Life came from? God? If so -- then God is the source either way. And the Tree of Life is every bit as literal as God's statement in Genesis 2 and 3 would force it to be.

Edited September 12, 2017 by BobRyan