Spiritual or Physical Death

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

All scripture is given by the Father to reveal His precious Son to us. Every aspect of creation is used to help us understand his glorious person, His character, and His purposes.

 

Here are a few examples -

 

`Lion, Lamb, bread of life, fountain of life, water of life, the sun, the morning star, the living stone, the rock, gem stones, the lily, the rose, fragrant aroma, the hen, the owl, the eagle, the pelican, the word, the Alpha & Omega, the logus, the root, the branch, the tree, the arche and telos, (the beginning and the end) etc etc`

 

In Roman ch. 11 we read -

 

`…you …became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree…..remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 11: 17 & 18)

`…the root is holy…`  (v. 16)

 

Here we see that we the Body of Christ receive our nourishment from the Lord, picturing it as receiving from the root of a tree!!!!!!

 

Marilyn.

 

In John 10 Jesus said he is the "door" - but that does not mean that every reference to a door is just a not-so-intuitive way to say "Jesus" in the Bible.

 

I think we all agree to this.

[Marilyn C]

48 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

 - the description is literal.

Literal Adam and Eve.

Literal eternal life

Literal God

Literal Tree

Genesis 3

²² Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— ²³ therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. ²⁴ So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Hi Marilyn

 

You mean -- Now that we no longer have the Tree of Life on earth?

Where do you think the Tree of Life came from? God? If so -- then God is the source either way. And the Tree of Life is every bit as literal as God's statement in Genesis 2 and 3 would force it to be.

Hi Bob,

So are you saying that because we do not have a tree that gives life anymore, then we have to have Jesus instead?

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

47 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

In John 10 Jesus said he is the "door" - but that does not mean that every reference to a door is just a not-so-intuitive way to say "Jesus" in the Bible.

 

I think we all agree to this.

Hi Bob,

As we can see in John 10 God`s word qualifies what that `door` means -

`I am the door of the sheep.` .....I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have LIFE , and that they may have IT more abundantly.`  (John 10: 7, 9 & 10)

The way to have life is through Jesus, who is God, before in the garden and now and on into eternity. He is the ONLY WAY, THE ONLY LIFE, THE ONLY TRUTH.

Any other.....person or theory, are `thieves and robbers...` (v. 8)

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

What you are presenting to others is that a tree can give life forever, and that is against what scripture teaches, which is that the Lord Jesus Christ is THE ONLY ONE who gives life forever, no one, or anything else can - only the precious blood of Jesus that was slain for us sinners can give life -

That tree, according to the Lord, had a fruit that if eaten could cause someone to live forever.   The Lord said that in Genesis 3, which is why the Lord put a guard on the tree so that Adam could not eat of it in his fallen state.  So I am going just by what the Bible says.

Secondly,   Jesus does not give "life forever."    Jesus gives eternal life.  The tree of life was NOT a tree of eternal life.   Living forever and having eternal life are not the same thing.   You, evidently are unable to understand the difference between living forever and having eternal life.

 

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To say that a real tree can give life forever, is mysticism which is one step away from the occult. very dangerous teaching there, bro.

Marilyn.

 

No, it is not mysticism.  I am just going by what God himself said about the tree.   

[Running Gator]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That tree, according to the Lord, had a fruit that if eaten could cause someone to live forever.   The Lord said that in Genesis 3, which is why the Lord put a guard on the tree so that Adam could not eat of it in his fallen state.  So I am going just by what the Bible says.

I am glad we can agree on the purpose of the tree of life.

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Secondly,   Jesus does not give "life forever."    Jesus gives eternal life.  The tree of life was NOT a tree of eternal life.   Living forever and having eternal life are not the same thing.   You, evidently are unable to understand the difference between living forever and having eternal life.

Which is exactly why Jesus' victory was over spiritual death, and not physical death.   And it is exactly why Adam's sin brought about spiritual death and not physical. 

[Guest shiloh357]

8 hours ago, Running Gator said:

I am glad we can agree on the purpose of the tree of life.

No, we don't.

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Which is exactly why Jesus' victory was over spiritual death, and not physical death.   And it is exactly why Adam's sin brought about spiritual death and not physical. 

Adam was cursed with physical death as a result of His disobedience.  It's why Jesus had to physically die on the cross to reverse the effects of Adam's disobedience.   Physical death is part of the curse:  "Dust you are, and to dust you shall return."   Physical illness, disease and death are how sin works itself out in the human body.  None of that existed before sin came into the world.

Furthermore, the Bible tells us in the book of Revelation that there will be no more tears, pain or physical death after the curse of sin is eradicated and that is the direct result of Christ's redemptive work on the cross.

Adam could not die physically until He was separated from God by sin.  Physical death and spiritual death come as a result of the curse and no longer exist after the curse of sin is removed.

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That tree, according to the Lord, had a fruit that if eaten could cause someone to live forever.   The Lord said that in Genesis 3, which is why the Lord put a guard on the tree so that Adam could not eat of it in his fallen state.  So I am going just by what the Bible says.

Secondly,   Jesus does not give "life forever."    Jesus gives eternal life.  The tree of life was NOT a tree of eternal life.   Living forever and having eternal life are not the same thing.   You, evidently are unable to understand the difference between living forever and having eternal life.

 

No, it is not mysticism.  I am just going by what God himself said about the tree.   

Hi Shiloh,

It seems to me that the Hebrew `olam` - meaning eternity, (for) ever (lasting) does mean the same thing, ie. living forever, and eternal life.

And the Greek `aion,` `aionos` & `aidios` meaning eternal, (for) ever, everlasting.

These are in reference to

Gen. 3: 22, `...take also of the tree of life and live for ever.`  (Heb. `olam` - meaning eternity, (for) ever (lasting).

Is. 40: 28  `..the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator...` (Isa. 40: 28) (Heb. `olam` - meaning eternity, (for) ever (lasting).

Matt. 19: 20   `..what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?` (Matt. 19: 16)  (Gk. `aidios` meaning everduring, eternal, everlasting.`)

 

So.....what are your thoughts, as you say they are different?

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

It seems to me that the Hebrew `olam` - meaning eternity, (for) ever (lasting) does mean the same thing..

And the Greek `aion,` `aionos` & `aidios` meaning eternal, (for) ever, everlasting.

These are in reference to

Gen. 3: 22, `...take also of the tree of life and live for ever.`  (Heb. `olam` - meaning eternity, (for) ever (lasting).

Is. 40: 28  `..the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator...` (Isa. 40: 28) (Heb. `olam` - meaning eternity, (for) ever (lasting).

Matt. 19: 20   `..what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?` (Matt. 19: 16)  (Gk. `aidios` meaning everduring, eternal, everlasting.`)

That's why we apply context.  Hebrew is a small language and it is very nuanced to make for the fact that is so small. Those nuances don't always show up in English.   More importantly,  how a word is used is more important than its definition.  In a given context, olam can mean "forever" and it can also simply mean, "a long time."   It has a variety of uses in Hebrew and you cannot plug those concepts into any verse you want to suit you.  Context is always king.

In Genesis 3, we find that the Tree of Life is not eternal life because had Adam eaten it in his fallen state, he would have remained in a cursed state and remained under God's judgement without hope of redemption.   That is NOT eternal life.

Eternal life is more than simply living forever. Eternal life is a Person.   Eternal life is Jesus.   His original Hebrew name means, "salvation."   He is eternal life.  He is salvation.   The eternal life we get from Jesus removes us from the curse that the Tree of Life could not remove.  

You simply cannot argue that the Tree of Life provided the same eternal life that Adam lost in the Garden.   When Adam  sinned, he was separated from the life of God, and the tree of life could not give him that life.   Only God  could give Adam true, eternal life, as it is the very life of God.

It's really simple, and I don't understand why you're trying to make this more complicated than it is.  

[Marilyn C]

57 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That's why we apply context.  Hebrew is a small language and it is very nuanced to make for the fact that is so small. Those nuances don't always show up in English.   More importantly,  how a word is used is more important than its definition.  In a given context, olam can mean "forever" and it can also simply mean, "a long time."   It has a variety of uses in Hebrew and you cannot plug those concepts into any verse you want to suit you.  Context is always king.

In Genesis 3, we find that the Tree of Life is not eternal life because had Adam eaten it in his fallen state, he would have remained in a cursed state and remained under God's judgement without hope of redemption.   That is NOT eternal life.

Eternal life is more than simply living forever. Eternal life is a Person.   Eternal life is Jesus.   His original Hebrew name means, "salvation."   He is eternal life.  He is salvation.   The eternal life we get from Jesus removes us from the curse that the Tree of Life could not remove.  

You simply cannot argue that the Tree of Life provided the same eternal life that Adam lost in the Garden.   When Adam  sinned, he was separated from the life of God, and the tree of life could not give him that life.   Only God  could give Adam true, eternal life, as it is the very life of God.

It's really simple, and I don't understand why you're trying to make this more complicated than it is.  

Hi shiloh,

Thank you for your explanation. It seems we both are pursuing our beliefs here bro. To me it seems that when one thinks there is a tree of life apart from Christ, then that is not only detracting but actually saying there is another way to receive eternal life. And that to me is very important to clarify, don`t you think?

So would you care to explain your thoughts on -

1. What do you regard as eternal life?

2. Why do people eat from the tree of life in the New Jerusalem?

regards, Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi shiloh,

Thank you for your explanation. It seems we both are pursuing our beliefs here bro. To me it seems that when one thinks there is a tree of life apart from Christ, then that is not only detracting but actually saying there is another way to receive eternal life. And that to me is very important to clarify, don`t you think?

Actually, if you bothered reading what I am saying, I have taken pains, over several posts, to point to the fact that there is no other way to receive eternal life except through Christ.  I have taken great pains to point out that Tree of Life did not give eternal life.   You are either not reading my posts, or you are being deliberately dishonest and misrepresenting what I am saying.

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1. What do you regard as eternal life?

Eternal life is the very life of God in us.  More to the point, Jesus is eternal life.  I thought my last post made that clear.

 

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2. Why do people eat from the tree of life in the New Jerusalem?

I am not really concerned about that.  What concerns me is this sloppy theology that tries to incorrectly argue that the tree of life in Genesis 3 is anything but a real tree.