Guest shiloh357 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, other one said: We still die though we are saved, and once we are changed we will have different bodies not the ones we now have. Don't see how we can join that all as the same. What I am saying is that when Adam fell, sin and death (spiritual and physical) entered into the world. With the eradication of sin (which has not happened yet), there will be no more death (spiritual or physical). So we know that physical death did not exist prior to the fall since sin did not exist prior to the fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Gator Posted September 8, 2017 Group: Royal Member * Followers: 8 Topic Count: 91 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 10,596 Content Per Day: 3.69 Reputation: 2,743 Days Won: 25 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: It doesn't "hint" at anything. You have not addressed why Adam and Eve would need to kept alive by eating from it, if they could not die in the first place. Your suggestion is simply not rational. I never said they could not die in the first place, that is your assertion, not mine nor the bibles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, Running Gator said: I never said they could not die in the first place, that is your assertion, not mine nor the bibles. It was suggested in your OP when you said this: If there was no death engineered into creation as some suggest, why was there a tree in the garden that would allow whomever ate its fruit to live forever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Gator Posted September 8, 2017 Group: Royal Member * Followers: 8 Topic Count: 91 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 10,596 Content Per Day: 3.69 Reputation: 2,743 Days Won: 25 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: It was suggested in your OP when you said this: If there was no death engineered into creation as some suggest, why was there a tree in the garden that would allow whomever ate its fruit to live forever? Well yes, you are the "as some suggest" that I was referring to. I disagree with that view and I use the tree of life as one of the reasons why. If you do not agree I am ok with that. As George pointed out we are just going in circles, so unless you have something new, I will take my leave from the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 minute ago, Running Gator said: Well yes, you are the "as some suggest" that I was referring to. I disagree with that view and I use the tree of life as one of the reasons why. If you do not agree I am ok with that. As George pointed out we are just going in circles, so unless you have something new, I will take my leave from the discussion. The point I was endeavoring to make in all this is that if death WAS a part of creation prior to the fall, then what purpose did the "curse" serve? Physical death was part of the curse: "Dust you are and to dust you shall return." If that was already happening, then that statement from God would not make sense. If God engineered death into creation, then why are redeemed from it? Why did Jesus die to take away that curse if God intended it as a part of what He called "very good?" Why would Jesus redeem us from death if death was the will of the Father? It pits Jesus and the Father against each other, as Jesus would be operating against the sovereign plan and purpose of God the Father. How you does your view square with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Gator Posted September 8, 2017 Group: Royal Member * Followers: 8 Topic Count: 91 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 10,596 Content Per Day: 3.69 Reputation: 2,743 Days Won: 25 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: The point I was endeavoring to make in all this is that if death WAS a part of creation prior to the fall, then what purpose did the "curse" serve? Physical death was part of the curse: "Dust you are and to dust you shall return." If that was already happening, then that statement from God would not make sense. If God engineered death into creation, then why are redeemed from it? Why did Jesus die to take away that curse if God intended it as a part of what He called "very good?" Why would Jesus redeem us from death if death was the will of the Father? It pits Jesus and the Father against each other, as Jesus would be operating against the sovereign plan and purpose of God the Father. How you does your view square with that? Based upon 50 plus years of observation, I would say that Jesus did not redeem us from physical death. Clearly people that has been redeemed by Jesus die, I think this is a fact we can both agree on. The death that Jesus redeemed us from is spiritual death, separation from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 10 minutes ago, Running Gator said: Based upon 50 plus years of observation, I would say that Jesus did not redeem us from physical death. Clearly people that has been redeemed by Jesus die, I think this is a fact we can both agree on. The death that Jesus redeemed us from is spiritual death, separation from God. Of course he redeemed us from physical death. That is Gospel 101. Do you not understand that there are aspects of our redemption that have not manifested yet? Salvation occurs in three stages, justification, sanctification and glorification. What we have now according to Paul, is the "down payment" or earnest of our inheritance. The eradication of physical death, which results from spiritual death is part of what is still future to the full realization of redemption. So yes, Jesus does redeem us from physical death. The direct result of redemption is our presence in the New Heavens and New Earth where there will be no more death: And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:3-4) Paul also says of physical death in connection to the bodily resurrection of Jesus: When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Co 15:54-57) So physical death, namely the eradication of it, is directly resulted from our redemption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted September 8, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,103 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,834 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Online Share Posted September 8, 2017 a lot of churchey words that don't make common sense Shiloh. it may well be that God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life and that is what would have sustained them. They ate of the other tree and he removed them from the tree of life.... does eating of the tree one time give eternal life or is it something that has to be retreated now and then. Not enough details to really get a grasp on.... but in the end, does it matter all that much? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, eileenhat said: The 'tree' of life is God's eternal lineage, not a tree like in your garden. Hence, 'tree' is a metaphor. No, the tree is not a metaphor. There is no metaphorical textual indicators anywhere in the text. Quote Once Adam partook of another lineage, he no longer was in god's good graces and hence no longer eternally moved. We have this idea that Adam was immortal, but he was in fact part of the mystery of what it entails to remain part of God's lineage, which is spiritual movement. That is utter nonsense. When Adam partook of the tree, he became a sinner. Adam was not part of God's lineage; that would have made Adam a god/divine, which is utterly false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 13 minutes ago, other one said: a lot of churchey words that don't make common sense Shiloh. No, it's sound theology and Scripture you can't refute. Quote it may well be that God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life and that is what would have sustained them. They ate of the other tree and he removed them from the tree of life.... does eating of the tree one time give eternal life or is it something that has to be retreated now and then. Adam and Eve were immortal, so eating from the tree of life could not impart to them what they already had. God was their source of life, not the tree. When they sinned they were separated from the life of God, himself. Quote Not enough details to really get a grasp on.... but in the end, does it matter all that much? Yes, it does matter and it matters a lot when you are diminishing God as the source of life and when the issue of the curse of death is at stake and that takes straight to the authority of Scripture on the matter of when death entered the world. The issue of when death came into the world is connected to the Gospel and the work of Jesus on the cross (Rom. 5:12-21). So yeah, it matters and it matters a whole bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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