10 myths of calvanism

[Reinitin]

Ken Stewart has a really cool book. No it's not a back slap to calvanist's.

Ken is a christian historian Professor of theology and biblical history who sets the historical record straight for reform pastors.

Some of the myths i see proclaimed here in the forums with great zeal.

first off calvin wasn't a hero of reformation it started 200 years before he was born in several cities not just Geneva.

Second Calvin did not write today's predestination doctrin often credited to him. predestination theology was developed and tossed around way before calvin and the Tulip Doctrin was revised several times and not established in 1913. 

Calvins doctrins and theology changed several times through his life. He didn't even go into predestination till late in his life. Tulip was developed from some quick incomplete notes  Calvin wrote after studying the Kingdom of God by agustus or Augustein I always mix those 2 up:)

Anyway it is a really great book if you want to make claims about calvanism it is good to fact check. exspecially if your using false information to elevate your own doctrins and mentor over other christians.

Plus, it gives you truth for a response against the false claims against calvanism like snake handling and calvin confussion.

Ken Stewart did a really great job of sighting historical records and seperating the myths from the facts. So you can really see the depths of Reform ubderstanding way deeper into truth by scripture instead of the Tulip glaze you can eat the cake.

[Fidei Defensor]

Calvin's is akin to Islamic Christianity or Chrislam. Why? Because John Calvin taught natural selection, God chooses you, but Calvin's five tenets of His ecclesiastical exercises were how he said a Calvinst knows they are chosen, but in the end he said "even if you do the five exercises, you will never know your chosen and saved." (Bruce Shelley, Church History in Plain Langauge and Diarmand McCulloch's The Reformation). Islam's prophet  Muhammed taught that adherants (Muslim) must do Jihad Ashgar: good deeds to outweight their bad deeds to make Allah let them enter paradise, but even if a Muslim does Ashgar all their lives they never know if they will enter paradise and if Allah will approve of them.  (Wagner, How Islam Plans to Change the World). Sound similar? Calvism and Islam teach merit based salvation but in the end both Calvin and Muhammed say you never know your saved.

In comtrast the Bible tells us we are saved when we believe and confess Jesus as our Lord and Son of God (Romans 10:9-10, John 6:40, John 3:16-18,  1 John 4:15). 

Calvism is a cult, it fails to answer Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) and the Great Commision, "go make disiciples.." (Matthew 28:16-20). In addition, Calvin's chosen message is refuted by the Apostles Peter and Paul, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) and, "3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4). 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[Reinitin]

12 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Calvin's is akin to Islamic Christianity or Chrislam. Why? Because John Calvin taught natural selection, God chooses you, but Calvin's five tenets of His ecclesiastical exercises were how he said a Calvinst knows they are chosen, but in the end he said "even if you do the five exercises, you will never know your chosen and saved." (Bruce Shelley, Church History in Plain Langauge and Diarmand McCulloch's The Reformation). Islam's prophet  Muhammed taught that adherants (Muslim) must do Jihad Ashgar: good deeds to outweight their bad deeds to make Allah let them enter paradise, but even if a Muslim does Ashgar all their lives they never know if they will enter paradise and if Allah will approve of them.  (Wagner, How Islam Plans to Change the World). Sound similar? Calvism and Islam teach merit based salvation but in the end both Calvin and Muhammed say you never know your saved.

In comtrast the Bible tells us we are saved when we believe and confess Jesus as our Lord and Son of God (Romans 10:9-10, John 6:40, John 3:16-18,  1 John 4:15). 

Calvism is a cult, it fails to answer Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) and the Great Commision, "go make disiciples.." (Matthew 28:16-20). In addition, Calvin's chosen message is refuted by the Apostles Peter and Paul, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) and, "3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4). 

I believe every one has their perspective. Most have doctrins based off scripture and really believe they are right and do have sincere concerns for those that are believing an opposing side of these 30,000 doctrinal argument's.  There are many doctrins held  by many people as the only path to eternal life. 

Of course many of these "we alone have the truth and teach the narrow path to eternal life" lost sight of Jesus in all their scriptural study.

I believe the one who we need to go to for salvation in faith is Christ. Working some formula of salvation may or may not put us on a path of savation in Christ.

To me Formulas are just worldly control systems set up by men and some by God to protect what they deem crusual.

I lean to Jesus as my hope and my testimony and my path.

I'm not really a good person to argue doctrin with because I believe you can have really strong biblical salvation formulas and religious systems and foundational doctrin truths and still totally miss Christ.

Jesus said, all day long you search the scriptures because you think in them you will find eternal life. But, you refuse to come to me so I can give you life. (Lisa paraphrase look it up). Now putting scripture in our heart, and useing The Scriptutes as our anchor of absolute truth, hope in time of oppression, peace in times of despair, healing oitment in times of greif. courage in times of fear.

But no where to my knowledge does it say use it to exalt yourself, harbor offence against your neighbor or use it to condemn your brother. 

It does tell us Jesus is our kinsman redeemer, our bread of life, our righteoysness, our light, The lamb of God who takes away our sins, our Salvation. And it does say satan is our accusser.

I'm pretty sure we have to have our heart right before we will ever get our doctrin right.

 

[Fidei Defensor]

8 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

I believe every one has their perspective. Most have doctrins based off scripture and really believe they are right and do have sincere concerns for those that are believing an opposing side of these 30,000 doctrinal argument's.  There are many doctrins held  by many people as the only path to eternal life. 

Of course many of these "we alone have the truth and teach the narrow path to eternal life" lost sight of Jesus in all their scriptural study.

I believe the one who we need to go to for salvation in faith is Christ. Working some formula of salvation may or may not put us on a path of savation in Christ.

To me Formulas are just worldly control systems set up by men and some by God to protect what they deem crusual.

I lean to Jesus as my hope and my testimony and my path.

I'm not really a good person to argue doctrin with because I believe you can have really strong biblical salvation formulas and religious systems and foundational doctrin truths and still totally miss Christ.

Jesus said, all day long you search the scriptures because you think in them you will find eternal life. But, you refuse to come to me so I can give you life. (Lisa paraphrase look it up). Now putting scripture in our heart, and useing The Scriptutes as our anchor of absolute truth, hope in time of oppression, peace in times of despair, healing oitment in times of greif. courage in times of fear.

But no where to my knowledge does it say use it to exalt yourself, harbor offence against your neighbor or use it to condemn your brother. 

It does tell us Jesus is our kinsman redeemer, our bread of life, our righteoysness, our light, The lamb of God who takes away our sins, our Salvation. And it does say satan is our accusser.

I'm pretty sure we have to have our heart right before we will ever get our doctrin right.

 

I don't condemn Calvinists, most of them are trying to make sense of the verse, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." (John 15:6), and "Many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14). I argue the former is Jesus literally calling the 12 Disciples and he is speaking specifically to them. As to latter about "many called, but few chosen," is that God is able to know who will choose Him because He does not live in time (2 Peter 3:8-11), and so because of His omniscience can see who chooses him (John 6:40, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10). 

According to the Apostles we can know what sound doctrine is easily, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work," (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and we are told what not sound doctrine looks like, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear, They will reject the truth (John 1:17, John 14:6) and chase after myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4). 

Other examples of Sound Doctrine: 

"Retain the standard of sound words (teaching, doctrine) which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (2 Timothy 1:3)

"In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following." (1 Timothy 4:6) 

"and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching." (1 Timothy 1:10) 

"If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness." (1 Timothy 6:3) 

"holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict." (Titus 1:9) 

"They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching (διδαχή, ῆς, ἡ, didaché, did-akh-ay', teaching, doctrine, what is taught) and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." (Acts 2:42)

"not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect." (Titus 2:10) 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[Reinitin]

4 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I don't condemn Calvinists, most of them are trying to make sense of the verse, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." (John 15:6), and "Many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14). I argue the former is Jesus literally calling the 12 Disciples and he is speaking specifically to them. As to latter about "many called, but few chosen," is that God is able to know who will choose Him because He does not live in time (2 Peter 3:8-11), and so because of His omniscience can see who chooses him (John 6:40, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10). 

According to the Apostles we can know what sound doctrine is easily, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work," (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and we are told what not sound doctrine looks like, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear, They will reject the truth (John 1:17, John 14:6) and chase after myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4). 

I'm not calvanist. It is just a really good book for anyone who is against calvanism or for calvanism.

Ken has really laid out the history, fruit's, fact's very well.

I figured some people could cast aside some of their (to me) Rediculous arguments and spend their time on earth more fruitfully if they read it. If your gonna argue and fight you probably at least know what your arguing and fighting about. don't you think?

It is a really good historical book. That is what I am saying. Anyone one that reads it will have "wow",  "I never knew that", moment's that will give them a larger, better perspective of what they are so zealously for or against.

[Fidei Defensor]

11 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

I'm not calvanist. It is just a really good book for anyone who is against calvanism or for calvanism.

Ken has really laid out the history, fruit's, fact's very well.

I figured some people could cast aside some of their (to me) Rediculous arguments and spend their time on earth more fruitfully if they read it. If your gonna argue and fight you probably at least know what your arguing and fighting about. don't you think?

It is a really good historical book. That is what I am saying. Anyone one that reads it will have "wow",  "I never knew that", moment's that will give them a larger, better perspective of what they are so zealously for or against.

I am glad you recommend this resource. I am astounded by Calvin who changed his mind three times: TULIP, Ecclesiastical Exercises, and finally His "Uh you'll never know your chosen." Martin Luther did the same thing: Devout Catholic Monk, Protester of Indulgences Only, Reformer, Destroyer of Catholic Canon Law Books, Upset He didn't Reform the Catholic Church, Luther returns to Canon Law and accepts Catholic Dogmas and Doctrine of Transubstantiation made official at Council of Trent in 1551, and he approves Confession and Absolution. How you practice Lutheranism then depends on if you apply Law of Approbation (everything newer, the last, most recent overturns the earlier revelations or exceeds them in importance, i.e. The Old Testament gives way to New Testament), or you choose and pick Lutheran doctrines which contradict each other depending where you decide to uphold Luther's claims. 

I believe The Reformation should have stayed at Ad Fontes (back to sources, The Scriptura) and Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone), this was its gift to us, get back to what Jesus and Apostles say about the faith, theology, eschatology, and etc. But as fallible men often do, they add to words of Scripture, write other books, and let their brain fall out when thinking with an open mind. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[Reinitin]

37 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I am glad you recommend this resource. I am astounded by Calvin who changed his mind three times: TULIP, Ecclesiastical Exercises, and finally His "Uh you'll never know your chosen." Martin Luther did the same thing: Devout Catholic Monk, Protester of Indulgences Only, Reformer, Destroyer of Catholic Canon Law Books, Upset He didn't Reform the Catholic Church, Luther returns to Canon Law and accepts Catholic Dogmas and Doctrine of Transubstantiation made official at Council of Trent in 1551, and he approves Confession and Absolution. How you practice Lutheranism then depends on if you apply Law of Approbation (everything newer, the last, most recent overturns the earlier revelations or exceeds them in importance, i.e. The Old Testament gives way to New Testament), or you choose and pick Lutheran doctrines which contradict each other depending where you decide to uphold Luther's claims. 

I believe The Reformation should have stayed at Ad Fontes (back to sources, The Scriptura) and Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone), this was its gift to us, get back to what Jesus and Apostles say about the faith, theology, eschatology, and etc. But as fallible men often do, they add to words of Scripture, write other books, and let their brain fall out when thinking with an open mind. 

I try to look at Calvins changes like this. Not one of us can walk with the Lord or seek the Lord or search the scripturesand not be humbled and not be changed in thinking and understanding.

Kind of silly but when I (totally ignorant, No christian biblical knowledge baised information). In my total faith, with total conviction and total nieveness. Fought tooth and nail for the existance of Unicorns with people full of the Word and that had taugh me KJV only word for word is truth. How silly? How could they be right if I was wrong? As a very young lover of horses and ponies I really believed the bible comfirmed the existance of unicorn's. It was my very first doctrin fight with big boys:) So we are all humbled and learn of the Lord. They had to admit Unicorn should of been translated oxen to correct my vain imagination and false doctrin..

Edited September 27, 2017 by Reinitin

[Omegaman 3.0]

14 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Calvism and Islam teach merit based salvation but in the end both Calvin and Muhammed say you never know your saved

So many ways to spell, not sure what we are discussing, lol.

That title, is about Calvanism, you mention Calvism FD, but I will speak only to what is called Calvinism by many.

If by Calvism, you mean Calvinism, then I have to agree, certainty of salvation is not that clear. We know that salvation is a gift of God, by grace, though faith. We "Calvinists", believe that the saved, are permanently saved, God does not take back the eternal life that He has given. He does not go back on His word, and change His promises. We also know, that we love Jesus, when we are obedient to Him, and when we love the brethren.

We are painfully aware, that none of us, is perfectly obedient. We know than none of us, perfectly loves the brethren. We know, that we are known by our fruits. We are told, to work out our salvation, with fear and trembling.

These true, biblical notions, are incorporated in what we believe, they are ALL true.

So, I believe, am confident, that I am saved by the blood of Jesus, shed for me, but what is not absolutely 100% positive, is that I am saved. God knows, I do not. I a aware that I am imperfect, so I am a Calvinist who sweats a little.

I also know, that it is not my works that save me. I cannot earn my way to heaven. If I cannot earn salvation, then neither can I un-earn it. It is a gift of God, and I cannot undo, what God has done in His love.

I have to strongly disagree, in the strongest sense, that Calvinism holds that salvation is merit based. I am not going to use the word "lie" here, as you might not be erring intentionally, but it is not true that Calvinism teaches that salvation is merit based. Calvinism teaches that it is impossible for man to earn salvation, that it is totally God's sovereign act.

I cannot imaging where you came up with such a notion. If that idea is floating around our there somewhere, then that is a myth about Calvinism, nor a myth of Calvinism. 

[Fidei Defensor]

2 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

I try to look at Calvins changes like this. Not one of us can walk with the Lord or seek the Lord or search the scripturesand not be humbled and not be changed in thinking and understanding.

Kind of silly but when I (totally ignorant, No christian biblical knowledge baised inforomation). In my total faitg and total nieveness. Fought tooth and nail for the existance of Unicorns with people full of the Word and had taugh me KJV only word for word is truth. How silly? How could they be right if I was wrong? As a very young lover of horses and ponies I really believed the bible comfirmed the existance of unicorn's. It was my very first doctrin fight:) So we are humbled and learn of the Lord.

My problem is that Calvin and Luther changed their views based on movements of man, and did not hold tightly to what is found in Scripture (which yes you can get revelation on). 

Hence why Jeremiah said, "This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD." (Jeremiah 17:5). 

I see Calvin and Luther's Later teachings which propped up Romanism and deviated from Scripture, as exactly this verse, they turned people away from Truth. Perhaps this is why James said, "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." (James 3:1). 
 

[Fidei Defensor]

7 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

So many ways to spell, not sure what we are discussing, lol.

That title, is about Calvanism, you mention Calvism FD, but I will speak only to what is called Calvinism by many.

If by Calvism, you mean Calvinism, then I have to agree, certainty of salvation is not the clear. We know that salvation is a gift of God, by grace, though faith. We "Calvinists", believe that the saved, are permanently saved, God does not take back the eternal life that He has given. He does not go back on His word, and change His promises. We also know, that we love Jesus, when we are obedient to Him, and when we love the brethren.

We are painfully aware, that none of us, is perfectly obedient. We know than none of us, perfectly loves the brethren. We know, that we are known by our fruits. We are told, to work out our salvation, with fear and trembling.

These true, biblical notions, are incorporated in what we believe, they are ALL true.

So, I believe, am confident, that I am saved by the blood of Jesus, shed for me, but what is not absolutely 100% positive, is that I am saved. God knows, I do not. I a aware that I am imperfect, so I am a Calvinist who sweats a little.

I also know, that it is not my works that save me. I cannot earn my way to heaven. If I cannot earn salvation, then neither can I un-earn it. It is a gift of God, and I cannot undo, what God has done in His love.

I have to strongly disagree, in the strongest sense, that Calvinism holds that salvation is merit based. I am not going to use the word "lie" here, as you might not be erring intentionally, but it is not true that Calvinism teaches that salvation is merit based. Calvinism teaches that it is impossible for man to earn salvation, that it is totally God's sovereign act.

I cannot imaging where you came up with such a notion. If that idea is floating around our there somewhere, then that is a myth about Calvinism, nor a myth of Calvinism. 

I learned about Calvinism from scholars (Bruce Shelley, "Church History in Plain Language" 4th Edition, Diarmand McCulloch's "The Reformation"). They went into John Calvin's Ecclesiastical Exercises, TULIP and other teachings in quite some detail. That is where my information comes from. 

As for my typo, I think pointing it out when you knew I was talking about Calvinism is rather rude, what else does it do than shame me in public for misspelling it while making quick enough responses to stay in the conversation? 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Fidei Defensor