convert or disciple?

[Robert William]

5 minutes ago, OneLight said:

There is nothing in John 3:16-17 that points to universal salvation.  Why do you keep implying that it does?

 

Atonement/propitiation

This means the turning away of wrath by an offering. It is similar to expiation, but expiation does not carry the nuances involving wrath. For the Christian, the propitiation was the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It turned away the wrath of God so that He could pass "over the sins previously committed," (Rom. 3:25). It was the Father who sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10) for all (1 John 2:2).

• "Propitiation properly signifies the removal of wrath by the offering of a gift," (The New Bible Dictionary).
• "Propitiation signifies the turning away of wrath by an offering," (Baker's Dictionary of Theology,  p. 424).
• The act of appeasing the wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person, (dictionary.com). 
• "The act of appeasing the wrath," (Webster's dictionary, 1828). 

 

Joh_3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

But you say the wrath has been removed from ALL humans, think man!

[Reinitin]

Just now, Yowm said:

Yes, and so?

well convert doesn't mean born again to me because of that part of mans condition. 

[Robert William]

2 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

fruit tests. awe yes. in your righteous judgement would beheading someone for disagreeing with you be good fruit or rotten fruit? Righteous Judgment or God complex?

Because Jesus commands Christians to love their enemies it would be bad fruit.

[Robert William]

1 minute ago, Reinitin said:

well convert doesn't mean born again to me because of that part of mans condition. 

Joh 3:1  There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9  Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10  Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[OneLight]

1 minute ago, Robert William said:

Atonement/propitiation

This means the turning away of wrath by an offering. It is similar to expiation, but expiation does not carry the nuances involving wrath. For the Christian, the propitiation was the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It turned away the wrath of God so that He could pass "over the sins previously committed," (Rom. 3:25). It was the Father who sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10) for all (1 John 2:2).

• "Propitiation properly signifies the removal of wrath by the offering of a gift," (The New Bible Dictionary).
• "Propitiation signifies the turning away of wrath by an offering," (Baker's Dictionary of Theology,  p. 424).
• The act of appeasing the wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person, (dictionary.com). 
• "The act of appeasing the wrath," (Webster's dictionary, 1828). 

 

Joh_3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

But you say the wrath has been removed from ALL humans, think man!

Jesus died for all.  Salvation are only for those who accept Jesus and His salvation.  That is not universal salvation at all.  You somehow think that because Jesus died for all (John 3:16) that it meant universal salvation.  It does not.  

Please, for the good of this conversation, do not continue to put words in my mouth or twist what I have said.  I never once said the wrath has been removed for ALL humans.  That statement is a lie about what I have said.

[Robert William]

9 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Jesus died for all.  Salvation are only for those who accept Jesus and His salvation.  That is not universal salvation at all.  You somehow think that because Jesus died for all (John 3:16) that it meant universal salvation.  It does not.  

Please, for the good of this conversation, do not continue to put words in my mouth or twist what I have said.  I never once said the wrath has been removed for ALL humans.  That statement is a lie about what I have said.

He Atoned and is the propitiation for the predestined elect, using the word died is deceptive and is not informative.

Joh_3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Propitiation.

This means the turning away of wrath by an offering. It is similar to expiation, but expiation does not carry the nuances involving wrath. For the Christian, the propitiation was the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It turned away the wrath of God so that He could pass "over the sins previously committed," (Rom. 3:25). It was the Father who sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10) for all (1 John 2:2).

• "Propitiation properly signifies the removal of wrath by the offering of a gift," (The New Bible Dictionary).
• "Propitiation signifies the turning away of wrath by an offering," (Baker's Dictionary of Theology,  p. 424).
• The act of appeasing the wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person, (dictionary.com). 
• "The act of appeasing the wrath," (Webster's dictionary, 1828). 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Robert William

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, Robert William said:

He Atoned and is the propitiation for the predestined elect, using the word died is deceptive and is not informative.

His flesh died, so it is not deceptive, but informative.  You contradict John 19:28-37

After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!”  Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.  So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.  Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.  But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.  But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.  And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.  For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.”  And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

He gave up His spirit - died.  The Roman soldiers saw He was dead.

It seems, that for some unknown reason to me, you need to make it sound that God did not send Jesus so that the whole world might be saved.  Why is that?  What sort of theology does this come from?

[Robert William]

12 minutes ago, OneLight said:

His flesh died, so it is not deceptive, but informative.  You contradict John 19:28-37

After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!”  Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.  So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.  Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.  But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.  But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.  And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.  For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.”  And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

He gave up His spirit - died.  The Roman soldiers saw He was dead.

It seems, that for some unknown reason to me, you need to make it sound that God did not send Jesus so that the whole world might be saved.  Why is that?  What sort of theology does this come from?

This means the turning away of wrath by an offering. It is similar to expiation, but expiation does not carry the nuances involving wrath. For the Christian, the propitiation was the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It turned away the wrath of God so that He could pass "over the sins previously committed," (Rom. 3:25). It was the Father who sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10) for all (1 John 2:2).

• "Propitiation properly signifies the removal of wrath by the offering of a gift," (The New Bible Dictionary).
• "Propitiation signifies the turning away of wrath by an offering," (Baker's Dictionary of Theology,  p. 424).
• The act of appeasing the wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person, (dictionary.com). 
• "The act of appeasing the wrath," (Webster's dictionary, 1828). 

 

My point was to show clearly show what Jesus accomplished, and it wasn't for ALL humans.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Robert William

[OneLight]

7 minutes ago, Robert William said:

This means the turning away of wrath by an offering. It is similar to expiation, but expiation does not carry the nuances involving wrath. For the Christian, the propitiation was the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It turned away the wrath of God so that He could pass "over the sins previously committed," (Rom. 3:25). It was the Father who sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10) for all (1 John 2:2).

• "Propitiation properly signifies the removal of wrath by the offering of a gift," (The New Bible Dictionary).
• "Propitiation signifies the turning away of wrath by an offering," (Baker's Dictionary of Theology,  p. 424).
• The act of appeasing the wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person, (dictionary.com). 
• "The act of appeasing the wrath," (Webster's dictionary, 1828). 

 

My point was to show clearly show what Jesus accomplished, and it wasn't for ALL humans.

You are repeating yourself.    What do you think the word world ( kosmos  G2889) means in John 3:16a then?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son

[Reinitin]

46 minutes ago, Robert William said:

Because Jesus commands Christians to love their enemies it would be bad fruit.

well I chose to see truths presented in a doctrin and can rejoice in truth but will not partisipate in the fruit. I took the word serious if the root is bad, tree is bad, so is the fruit. I'll stay here rooted in Christ people can have the synod of dort summary and grow on that tree if they want.