Limited Atonement

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Robert William said:

Ephesians 4:1 is talking about the predestined elect, the 'us' is the predestined elect.

Our subject is the gospel, the natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

you made a statement I quoted it and I refuted it with Scripture learn or remain in error your God given choice...

[SavedOnebyGrace]

7 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Choice is not a work but a foundational aspect of The Godhead before creation ever began ... 

Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)

[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We were created innocent in the image of God and we see choice reflected in that image...

Genesis 2:9 (KJV)

[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16 (KJV)

[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So for you to say choice is a work of the flesh does not square with God's Word...
Love, Steven

The Punishment of Mankind (Genesis 3:16-18)
16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;…

New American Standard Bible

enoob57 you are correct.  Man and woman had free will to choose to eat of that tree or not.  They chose to believe the serpent over God.  If God had set a trap for them so that they would always fail, that wouldn't be a fair test.  That's why we have free will.  Choice is not a work of the flesh.  God created choice (free will).

[Robert William]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

you made a statement I quoted it and I refuted it with Scripture learn or remain in error your God given choice...

You have mistranslated those scriptures, the "us" and the "we" are the predestined elect, NOT all humans.

[Unfailing Presence]

13 hours ago, Robert William said:

That's not what scripture teaches, God does NOT love everybody. The word of God supersedes your feelings and emotions.

Joh_3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Your are obviously  misconstruing  God's love as somehow being a  constraint on His holiness and His ability to dispense absolute perfect justice unhindered .

The two have nothing to do with each other .

God's love & desire for us in no way saves us from the consequences of our choices .

Just as a parents love for their child will not prevent that child from suffering the consequences of their own choices .

I have heard more than once from the mouths of heartbroken parents words that leave no doubt they still love their child  , and always will , yet will tell you in their very

next breath that the prison cell their beloved child occupies is exactly where they deserve to be . 

To think that this  ability to separate love and justice that even  humans are sometimes capable of is beyond the realm of God's capabilities

demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the Divine nature .

 

                                " If I ascend up into heaven thou art there , IF I MAKE MY bed in hell , behold thou art there. " Psalm 139 : 8  

Edited October 28, 2017 by Unfailing Presence

[Robert William]

10 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Your are obviously  misconstruing  God's love as somehow being a  constraint on His holiness and His ability to dispense absolute perfect justice unhindered .

The two have nothing to do with each other .

God's love & desire for us in no way saves us from the consequences of our choices .

Just as a parents love for their child will not prevent that child from suffering the consequences of their own choices .

I have heard more than once from the mouths of heartbroken parents words that leave no doubt they still love their child  , and always will , yet will tell you in their very

next breath that the prison cell their beloved child occupies is exactly where they deserve to be . 

To think that this  ability to separate love and justice that even  humans are sometimes capable of is beyond the realm of God's capabilities

demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the Divine nature .

 

                                " If I ascend up into heaven thou art there , IF I MAKE MY bed in hell , behold thou art there. " Psalm 139 : 8  

What do you think about God killing 42 LITTLE children for calling His Prophet baldy?

2Ki 2:23  And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24  And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
2Ki 2:25  And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

 

[Unfailing Presence]

 " What do you think about God killing 42 LITTLE children for calling His Prophet baldy ? "

 

About the same as  I think of God killing Moses  when and where He did .

God really loves Moses by the way .

Willful sin can sometimes result in the earthly death of anyone whom God loves .

Including me .

God gave it , and therefore it is right for Him to take when and where He sees fit .

That's all I have to say about that . 

 

                                                      " It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God . "      ( Hebrews 10 : 31 )

Edited October 28, 2017 by Unfailing Presence

[missmuffet]

Limited atonement deals with Calvinism. I do not support Calvinism.

[Robert William]

23 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

 " What do you think about God killing 42 LITTLE children for calling His Prophet baldy ? "

 

About the same as  I think of God killing Moses  when and where He did .

God really loves Moses by the way .

Willful sin can sometimes result in the earthly death of anyone whom God loves .

Including me .

God gave it , and therefore it is right for Him to take when and where He sees fit .

That's all I have to say about that . 

 

                                                      " It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God . "      ( Hebrews 10 : 31 )

Strange viewpoint, I don't see sending two bears to kill 42 Little children as Him loving them, also, there is no scripture saying God killed Moses.

[Unfailing Presence]

You don't know your scripture then .

Actually God killing Moses was an ancillary factor that  I'm sure that did not bother Moses half as much as the real penalty that God saw fit for his sin ,  and that was 

not allowing him to cross Jordan and set foot in the Promised Land .

Your obvious paramount priority of  the flesh  not a viewpoint shared by Moses .

By the way , since you seem to not ever have read this , God not only killed Moses , but the scripture says God also personally buried Moses . 

The only instance in scripture of God personally burying a corpse .

That is why you can go to the middle east today  and be shown Jacob's tomb ,  Joseph's tomb , David's tomb , etc,etc,etc, ,,, but nowhere will anyone ever point out to you 

" that is Moses tomb " .

By the way God killing Moses in no way made Moses life any less precious to God , nor the lives of the " little children " any less precious . 

Actually the more accurate interpretation of the incident gives more the meaning  of teenage juvenile delinquents .

Teenage juvenile delinquents being much more prone to being found in a gang of " 42" causing trouble , than to happen upon a  gang of  

"42   little children " .

Little children in a gang of 42 being just as uncommon in those days as they are today .

And I ought to know , having been both a " little child "   and a  teenage juvenile delinquent .

And if God should decide to take me or you today  that would make our lives not one fraction less precious to Him than if he should end our lives 1000 years from now .

 

                                  " I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes , BUT THOU SHALT NOT GO OVER THITHER .

                                      So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab , according to the Word of the Lord .

                                     And HE buried him in a valley in the land of Moab over against Bethpeor but NO MAN KNOWETH OF HIS SEPULCHRE unto 

                                      this day . "                                (  Deuteronomy 34 : 4-6 )

Edited October 29, 2017 by Unfailing Presence

[ytLiJC]

On 10/27/2017 at 3:11 AM, Robert William said:

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9)

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...  Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28).  

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not Atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!

 

let's remember the words of St John the Apostle who says that fear is the thing that makes us not love one or another of our neighbors and that whoever fears to work for overall salvation in God and Jesus is not perfected in love (1 John 4:18)

just type in google "salvation" --> enter, and then "salvation for all men" --> enter, and see the big difference in the search results - how many clerics and worshiper have feared to work for overall salvation

Galatians 5:22-26 (NASB) "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.",

1 John 3:18 (NASB) "Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth."

how can we ever imagine that God is the system Administrator/Provider of life only for some souls?!

John 3:16-18 (AKJV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

so do all religious worshipers believe (i.e. found their faiths) on Him?!, do all of them believe in His Name (i.e. in His Righteousness)?!, what do we work for as religious worshipers and spiritual servants, for overall salvation or destruction?!

and do we reprove/rebuke those who commit unrighteousness in the faith, IOW, who bring abomination of desolation in the holy place?!

Blessings