I Thes 5:22

[Running Gator]

4 hours ago, Butero said:

Again, this is exactly the kind of thinking I have been warning people about.  It is a way of having your cake and eating it too.  You can claim to believe in inerrancy of scripture, but then say that was only the case in the original manuscripts that have long ago decayed with age.  As such, if you don't like something, you can translation shop to find a Bible that says what you want, and claim the other translations that say something you don't like have errors.  As such, we have no fully reliable translation, so inerrancy doesn't have any real meaning.  

I do not translate shop, I use one translation, the ESV.  I reject this charge against me from you.

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The King James Bible was translated from the original manuscripts that were perfect, the T.R., and they used the best corresponding English words. 

Please provide proof that the T.R. was "perfect".  

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The modern translations chose to start with the Egyptian and Alexandrian manuscripts as their foundation, not the manuscripts that were accepted as scripture by the church, and they were at times incomplete or different. 

By "the church" you are of course talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England.  You do not seem to be a big fan of the RCC.

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In addition to that, the translators were trying to get a copywrite, so in order to do that, their translations had to differ from one another, meaning they would often times use the 3rd, 4th or 5th best definition of a word rather than the best one which was already used.  That led to more changes in the translations.

And the translators of the KJV were given instructions by King James that the translation had to conform to the views of the Church of England. 

 

 

[Running Gator]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Furthermore, your argument would make man more powerful than God since, by your logic, God is incapable of preserving His Word against man's imperfections.   That completely degrades the sovereignty of God.   If every Bible is imperfect, then there is no way to know what God actually says in His Word.   You can have no faith in the Word of God, whatsoever, no way to trust what you're reading.   The "Word of God" in that case, becomes whatever someone wants it to be. 

It comes down to whether you believe for God's message is tied to individual words or to the ideas that they are presenting.  If as you are saying it is that God has to control word for word and letter for letter the reproduction of His word for it to be "valid" then we have problem as the first KJV version had over 400 printing errors.  Why did God allow those to happen? 

I do have a question for you and the other KJV only folks, is it your position that the Holy Spirit guided the translators of the KJV giving them the correct translation for each and every word?

Edited November 10, 2017 by Running Gator

[Heleadethme]

9 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Let us take HEED to this warning.       Soon in time when the whole of the leaven is FULL and filled with this all inclusive world peace LIE

MANY will then betray us , thinking we evil and they are love.  thinking we do the work of satan and they do the will of GOD for world peace and unity.

THINK this cant happen.   NOT ONLY WILL IT ................its coming way sooner than most realize.   much sooner.

YES the time is coming for us even here in western socities and round the world , that those who kill us will think they do GODS WILL for world peace and unity.  ITS COMING

and wont be stayed too much longer.    We better be prepared n Christ NOW or fall away many more will.  

Amen brother..........numbered with transgressors, to the world we appear evil........the smell of death to the perishing but the fragrance of Christ to those who are being saved.

[Heleadethme]

4 hours ago, Butero said:

I understand that.  I knew some accused Jesus of having a devil, but I believe they knew better and only did because they didn't want to acknowledge it was the power of God doing the works.  I was just trying to figure out what was meant by some thinking Jesus was mentally ill.  It was the words "beside himself" she was referring to.  I always looked at that as being overwhelmed, not mentally ill, but I will try to take the time to look into that further.  

He probably was overwhelmed, so to speak, by the Holy Spirit.......which appeared to others as being mentally ill and having a demon........not that he actually was.  Paul mentions being beside himself too.

[Guest Butero]

31 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

If you are interested in more study, according to Strong's in blueletter bible ( https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1491&t=KJV ) the Greek word "eidos" also means form, figure, shape, or kind.  See elsewhere in the bible where it is used to mean shape/form.

And the more I look into it the more I'm convinced that mere outward appearance is not the right understanding of 2 Thess. 5:22, because other places that are talking EXPLICITLY about outward appearance do not use the word "eidos".  These same scriptures also give us God's thoughts on the matter and we know His word does not contradict itself.

John 7:24

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.  (Greek word "opsis")

2 Corinthians 5:12

For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. (Greek word "prosopon")

2 Corinthians 10:7

Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's. (Greek word "prosopon")

I can only speak and testify for myself that as for me, I've completely thrown out the "outward appearance" understanding of that 2 Thess. verse.........my mind is washed of it......it's just gone, gone, disappeared, poof, nada, nyet, nil, nullified.....and away from me satan......I simply do not believe outward appearance is what God wants us to be concerned about.  He has freed me from that false constraint to simply shema (hear/obey/follow) Him, without consciousness of sin, like a little child, praise His name.

And I will add that is one stumbling stone out of the way in my life......on the way and related to another bigger one that I've been praying to have removed......I give you praise and thanks Lord Jesus \o/ and may we continue on to victory! 

 

The Greek Dictionary I have at home is Strong's, and it is the one I trust the most for accuracy.  At the same time, I don't trust the Lexicon web-site, because I have seen them add things to the definition or the text that wasn't originally there.  I plan to look it up in that Dictionary when I get home, Lord willing of course.  

You can misjudge someone if you only look at the outward appearance, but those scriptures are not saying outward appearance doesn't matter.  They are just saying you can be fooled, like how the devil can come as an angel of light, or a wolf can come in sheep's clothing.  You also have the example of how tares can appear to be wheat.  You can't be sure someone is saved or not saved if all you look at is outward appearance, but that is as far as I take the verses you listed.  

[Heleadethme]

9 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Note that that still happen today, in this day and age we are living in.  People and familiy actually in reality

believe their other family members who are true believers are 'crazy', to put it most polite for here.

They will even deliver their own father or son or mother or brother over to death (like in nazi Germany they did often - it also happens all around the world today) ....

Bless you simplejeff.......when we follow Jesus we don't live and do things like the world does, and this often goes against what the world considers to be normal or right and we appear to be all kinds of things.......everything from crazy, illogical, or stupid to transgressors.  It doesn't have to wait for mass persecutions, we taste it even now.  But we keep on pushing through until one day wisdom is proved right by her children, hallelujah, praise the Lord, that is so encouraging!

[Guest Butero]

9 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

He probably was overwhelmed, so to speak, by the Holy Spirit.......which appeared to others as being mentally ill and having a demon........not that he actually was.  Paul mentions being beside himself too.

In the case of Paul, his faith in Christ, his testimony of his experience in meeting Jesus, and his faith in the resurrection led to him being thought to be mad.  In that case, I clearly see what you are saying, but I am not convinced anyone thought Jesus was crazy or possessed.  I think the religious leaders knew he didn't have a devil, but were just making the accusation because they were trying to explain away the miracles to the multitude.  

[simplejeff]

11 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

He probably was overwhelmed, so to speak, by the Holy Spirit.......which appeared to others as being mentally ill and having a demon........not that he actually was.  Paul mentions being beside himself too.

Sorry, no, this might be entirely misleading to readers.   Jesus spoke so simply , powerfully, and truthfully that it

was a "new thing" to the people who were (and are today, STILL) SO HUNGRY for the LIFE FLOWING FROM HIM.

The honesty and bluntness and power in everything Jesus says is unknown in other speakers/ teachers/ parents/ children/ relatives/ pastors/ priests/ bishops/ televangelists/ at the time (that His Own family thought He was crazy OR whatever the original actually says and means) 

so what was His mother and brothers and sisters to think ?  Even THEY HAD NEVER SEEN ANYONE LIKE HIM THIS WAY, and few today ever do either - it is so rare, TODAY, people who speak as Jesus did are considered delusional or liars or drunk,  same as some thought of Jesus.

But no,  back to the objection here,  NEITHER JESUS nor the APOSTLES were out of control of themselves.  See in Scripture the description of all those who are led by Yahweh's Spirit.  It is not out of control,  rather instead with self control,  especially or even while prophesying ("the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet") ..... not mindless and not random nor , well ,   as seemingly implied here.

[simplejeff]

8 minutes ago, Butero said:

I clearly see what you are saying, but I am not convinced anyone thought Jesus was crazy

If you clearly saw what she is saying,  you wouldn't need convinced.

[Heleadethme]

2 minutes ago, Butero said:

In the case of Paul, his faith in Christ, his testimony of his experience in meeting Jesus, and his faith in the resurrection led to him being thought to be mad.  In that case, I clearly see what you are saying, but I am not convinced anyone thought Jesus was crazy or possessed.  I think the religious leaders knew he didn't have a devil, but were just making the accusation because they were trying to explain away the miracles to the multitude.  

I think you are going to think whatever you want brother.....but if I were you I would rather seek the Lord for His insight.  Or we can study til the cows come home and still miss the mark by a mile......we need the Lord, His Spirit to HELP us, always, and that is why He is called the Helper.  Bless you.