Did God "needed" the original sin?

[listener24]

13 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

The notion that God needed original sin to exist is a mormon belief. Are the Christians you are listening to actually mormons? They are not Christians. Their beliefs are not true to the bible. 

I agree it should be not a Christian belief. (didn't know mormons believe this)

Unfortunately, I had the impression that some Christians, without being aware of that, believe in some sentences that logically implies the "necessity" of original sin. So even if they don't state it explicitly, this is what they believe.

That's why I used the example of sentence A. If someone believes sentence A, for instance, he implicitly believes B.

In the same way there are other sentences that could imply B. So we should be aware of always seeking coherence in what we believe.

it is like saying that since I  believe that the earth is a sphere, then I also implicitly believe that if I go always in the same direction, I'll arrive back to where I started (and not reaching the "end" of the earth). I can't say that I believe the earth is a sphere, but NOT that if I go in the same direction I'll not arrive back to where I started. Because the first logically implies the second.

Edited December 26, 2017 by listener24

[Guest shiloh357]

56 minutes ago, listener24 said:

Can you tell me what is Scripturally wrong in:

"God could create souls directly in Heaven or other dimensions, he has no need of the world in its current corrupted state for creating new souls and the only reasons we are here in the world in its corrupted state is original sin, chosen by men."

God doesn't create souls directly in Heaven or other dimensions; that's what wrong with it.   Nothing in the Bible says that.   You are not getting this garbage from Christians.   As Jade says, you probably getting this from Mormons and they are not Christians.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

I've heard some assertions from many siblings in Christ. One of this is like:

A - "God can only create new souls in this world, in its current state. He is waiting to reach the right number of souls before coming back."

Even if it is not always stated this way, many sentences of some siblings imply this belief. 

But if we remember that the world is in the current state because of original sin, then A implies:

B - original sin was "necessary" to God for creating new souls and reaching the number of souls he wanted. 

 

An alternative to the above sentences A and B would be: 

 

A2: - "God could create souls directly in Heaven or other dimensions, he has no need of the world in its current corrupted state for creating new souls and the only reasons we are here in the world in its corrupted state is original sin, chosen by men."

In this case, A2 is compatible with 

B2 - original sin was NOT necessary, but a mistake.

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So to recap, A is compatible with B, but not with B2, because to state A and B2 makes no logical sense. 

In the same way, A2 is compatible with B2 but not with B.

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What do you think? Are you more oriented on the "necessity" sentences (A,B), or the "mistake" sentences (A2,B2)?

 

 

Hi listener,

Those are thoughts that people would have, so it`s good to bring them up. So let me bring in some other thoughts.

1. God is omniscient - all knowing. Thus He knew that when He would create man with free will that man would choose to go his own way. This was `factored` in to God`s eternal plans.

2. Man was created `good` perfect, with a free will, but VUNERABLE. Meaning that his free will had not been exercised. he had to have a choice for him to choose God`s way. But he was tricked, and chose his own way. Thus the centuries of God`s patience as man is given every opportunity to show that his way, his rulership can bring peace and safety.

I have heard people say that God needs to have a certain number...blah blah, but it is not scriptural. This is what God says for each group -

1. The nations - When evil comes to a head (final Global Government) then God will judge it and those involved.

2. Israel - God will deliver Israel from its enemies and the Lord will reveal Himself to them. They will rule over the nations as promised and be a blessing to all nations, (as promised to Abraham).

3. The Body of Christ - when come to the unity of the faith, (knowing Christ`s character and purposes) then they will be taken to their eternal destination. (Eph. 4: 13  & Rev. 3: 21)

all the best, Marilyn.

[Guest]

Neither. GOD created Adam. Being outside of time, HE knew that Adam would sin but he still had the option not too. It had nothing to do with “needing souls in Heaven.

[listener24]

15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

God doesn't create souls directly in Heaven or other dimensions; that's what wrong with it.   Nothing in the Bible says that.   You are not getting this garbage from Christians.

Aren't angels created directly in Heaven?

 "Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

Edited December 27, 2017 by listener24

[listener24]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Those are thoughts that people would have, so it`s good to bring them up. So let me bring in some other thoughts.

 

Thanks Marylin for understanding what the question was about, and its purpose, in the first place.

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thus He knew that when He would create man with free will that man would choose to go his own way. This was `factored` in to God`s eternal plans.

2

Here lies the core of the question. When you said "factored", do you mean it was necessary for His plans, or that even if men wouldn't have sin, it would have been perfectly fine (even better) for His plan? I believe the latter, but wanted to be sure.

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

1. The nations - When evil comes to a head (final Global Government) then God will judge it and those involved.

2. Israel - God will deliver Israel from its enemies and the Lord will reveal Himself to them. They will rule over the nations as promised and be a blessing to all nations, (as promised to Abraham).

3. The Body of Christ - when come to the unity of the faith, (knowing Christ`s character and purposes) then they will be taken to their eternal destination. (Eph. 4: 13  & Rev. 3: 21)

1

This is a very interesting perspective. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but yours is interesting and makes more sense than the others who talk about "right number of conversions to reach".

On your point 3, my idea is that the body of Christ will be ready again only when we'll come back on ASKING (Matthew 7:7, John 16:24) for God's deliverance from evil, (instead of passively waiting for it and teaching others that we have only a passive role and should instead invent worldly prayers), with the prayer that God Himself taught us, the Lord's prayer and the last prayer in the Bible (Maranatha). I've already published dozens of sources of this idea which is not mine in other posts.

"Yet you have not called on me, Jacob" Isaiah 42:22

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by listener24

[other one]

15 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Neither. GOD created Adam. Being outside of time, HE knew that Adam would sin but he still had the option not too. It had nothing to do with “needing souls in Heaven.

Remember that we are to judge Angels.....      God not only knew that Adam would eat of the fruit, to receive the knowledge of good and evil it was required...     Satan was so ignorant of what was going on, it was he himself that ended up making it possible.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, listener24 said:

Aren't angels created directly in Heaven?

 

But they are not human "souls."   So you can't use them to support the idea that God creates humans directly.   The only humans God created directly were Adam and Eve.   We are the product of pro-creation, not direct creation.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, other one said:

Remember that we are to judge Angels.....      God not only knew that Adam would eat of the fruit, to receive the knowledge of good and evil it was required...     Satan was so ignorant of what was going on, it was he himself that ended up making it possible.

It wasn't "required" of Adam, otherwise there wouldn't have been free will. But GOD knew he would since before time.

[other one]

Just now, Rick_Parker said:

It wasn't "required" of Adam, otherwise there wouldn't have been free will. But GOD knew he would since before time.

We had to get the knowledge of good and evil from somewhere...   I think it poetic justice the way it worked out and the devil can't even say that God created a jury directly....   it's really kind of humorous.