Jesus Is God

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5 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

I hope in time that you will revise this thought. He (Yeshua) was slain from before the foundation of the world.

By Him the world was created. Yeshua means Yahweh is Salvation. Always was, always will be - unchangeable, The Alpha and The Omega. The Beginning and the End.

Wow i do not know where you got that quote from but it is not my belief... I believe Jesus was from eternal to eternal.. Jesus has always been..

Edited March 16, 2018 by Adstar

[Justin Adams]

Sorry Adstar... it was a re-quote from TrevorL from your re-quote. Was not your content.

[Adstar]

6 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Sorry Adstar... it was a re-quote from TrevorL from your re-quote. Was not your content.

No worries Justin    All's well that ends well..

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Adstar,

 

7 hours ago, Adstar said:

So do you believe God is an Angel ???  

The OT Hebrew word Elohim is usually translated God, but in some contexts it is used for an Angel or Angels and also for the Judges. The various translations have had difficulty in deciding what word to choose and the following are some examples where this difference is evident.

 

Psalm 8:4-6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Psalm 8:4-6 (ASV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor. 6 Thou makest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet:

The KJV rendition is confirmed in Hebrews 2 where it not only states that this is angels, but also bases much of his argument on the fact that when Jesus was made or created at conception and birth he was made lower than the angels.

 

Seeing that this was raised in another Post, the Judges in Israel were also called Elohim. When John 10:30-36 quotes and expounds Psalm 82, it is talking about the Judges in Israel. Again the translators had difficulty in deciding what word to select. KiwiChristian will be happy that I prefer the KJV rendition in the above and the following:

 

The translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor's goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

Kind regards
Trevor

Edited March 16, 2018 by TrevorL

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Justin Adams,

 

6 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I hope in time that you will revise this thought. He (Yeshua) was slain from before the foundation of the world.

Are you suggesting that he was slain twice? Once before the foundation of the world and then again 2000 years ago? Or did God when he contemplated the creation of the world, he also saw the fall of man and the necessity of providing the Lamb of God (not God the Lamb).

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[KiwiChristian]

19 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again KiwiChristian,

 

Much of what you have stated is a repeat of what we have already discussed, so I decided to answer a few portions.

 

I would be interested in what Jesus is teaching us in the following:

Acts 2:22-24 (KJV): Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

 

 

Acts 2:22-24 is NOT what you just quoted, so i don't know what you want me to reply to, Acts 2:22-24 OR the verse you quoted which is actually John 11:41

 

Acts 2:22-24 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.".

 

At first glance with my friend right now, i was stumped. It DID seem to read that God did the miracles THROUGH Jesus rather than Jesus doing them Himself.

Then we looked up the Greek. The Greek states in effect that Jesus DID the miracles as per GODS' plan and foreknowledge. 

 

Now, John 11 doesnt say that God the father raised lazarus. The next few verses shows WHY Jesus said what He said.

 

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I will give you my assessment. Jesus wanted to raise Lazarus from the dead, but before he does this he had prayed to God the Father.

 

WHAT did Jesus pray? Did He pray that God the father would raise lazarus? No. It actually states why Jesus prayed.

 

 

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This either implies that Jesus first requested that Lazarus could be raised, or that he be given the power to perform this particular miracle.

 

The key word here is "implies". It doesn't STATE it.

 

It could imply this if someone already as a false presupposition that Jesus is not God.

 

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Whatever the exact request, God answered him in the affirmative. If he was God the Son, why was it necessary to pray to God the Father? What do you suggest that Jesus had requested to God?

 

 

Show me where God answered Him in the affirmative and show me the question Jesus asked.

 

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I have listened to James White discuss the Trinity with Sir Anthony Buzzard. I agreed with most of what Sir Anthony stated. I have a copy of Anthony Buzzard's book.

 

 

Yes, i have seen this debate. buzzard is very flawed in his logic.

 

 

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I do not reject the KJV, but heartily endorse it as being the best thing that ever happened with the English Bible(s).

 

 

This is a different topic and i am spending far too much time on this topic in other posts to address that here.

 

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You seem to be almost a KJV only advocate.

 

Although this is a separate issue, yes and no.

 

God can use ANY Bible to bring ANYONE to salvation.

 

However, if someone wants to learn WHO God is, i think the KJV is the best as others attack His deity, attack His blood atonement, adds and removes thousands of words, confuses people with doubt-ridden footnotes, etc.

 

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Perhaps you have not read from a RV/KJV interlinear Bible. My mother told me that this was my grandmother’s favourite Bible. She died before I was born. Also in my mother’s estate was an almost unused copy, which my older sister gave me on settlement a few years ago. I like the OT portion, but I accept some of your reservations as I have many doubts about the NT manuscript basis of the RV and most other modern translations.

 

 

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The OT panel attempted to make only minimal alterations and corrections,

 

Like i said, we are talking THOUSANDS of words.

 

My main gripe is not the "updating" of words, but that these new words actually mean DIFFERENT things.

 

 

Quote

 

and the OT is based on essentially the same Hebrew as the KJV. I usually read the top line, the RV, and when it is different then the two are small, and then it is easy to compare with the KJV. I have often sat in a Bible Class and the speaker has to explain the inadequacies of various words in the KJV, while a quick reference to the RV would be sufficient. 

 

LOL. "inadequacies"?

 

Please give me an example.

Can you name this speaker, please?

 

[Adstar]

14 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Adstar,

 

The OT Hebrew word Elohim is usually translated God, but in some contexts it is used for an Angel or Angels and also for the Judges. The various translations have had difficulty in deciding what word to choose and the following are some examples where this difference is evident.

 

Psalm 8:4-6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Psalm 8:4-6 (ASV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor. 6 Thou makest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet:

The KJV rendition is confirmed in Hebrews 2 where it not only states that this is angels, but also bases much of his argument on the fact that when Jesus was made or created at conception and birth he was made lower than the angels.

 

Seeing that this was raised in another Post, the Judges in Israel were also called Elohim. When John 10:30-36 quotes and expounds Psalm 82, it is talking about the Judges in Israel. Again the translators had difficulty in deciding what word to select. KiwiChristian will be happy that I prefer the KJV rendition in the above and the following:

 

The translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor's goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

Kind regards
Trevor

Ok so you do not believe the KJV is the inspired word of God.. 

You either believe that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush or you believe an angel spoke to moases from the burning bush... 

So yeah i cannot see how we can get anywhere when we do not believe in the same Book..

[TrevorL]

Greetings again KiwiChristian,

 

3 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Acts 2:22-24 is NOT what you just quoted, so i don't know what you want me to reply to, Acts 2:22-24 OR the verse you quoted which is actually John 11:41

Yes I meant to write John 11.

John 11:40-42 (KJV): 40 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42  And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Yes it was Jesus that raised Lazarus, but it is evident that Jesus first prayed to God, his Father.

 

3 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Show me where God answered Him in the affirmative and show me the question Jesus asked.

We are not told exactly what he prayed, but it appears that he was given the affirmative to raise Lazarus. “Heard” in this context means more than just listening, but almost consent.

 

3 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Please give me an example.

Can you name this speaker, please?

No one profound, but simply our Bible Class. The various selected speakers usually run a series, and recent and current topics have been 1 Peter, Isaiah, Zechariah and Hebrews, expounding a chapter per night. I notice on many occasions that their explanation lines up with the RV or NASB in words and sometimes sense.

 

Kind regards
Trevor

Edited March 17, 2018 by TrevorL

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Adstar,

 

22 minutes ago, Adstar said:

Ok so you do not believe the KJV is the inspired word of God.

I am not a KJV only advocate, but the KJV is my favourite Bible. I believe that the Bible is inspired, but we do not have the original scrolls and manuscripts and parchments and therefore any of our English Bibles are only sincere attempts to translate the Bible.

 

22 minutes ago, Adstar said:

You either believe that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush or you believe an angel spoke to moases from the burning bush... 

It is up to you whether you accept what I have stated or not. I believe that the Angel was God’s messenger, not God Himself. Thus what the Angel said was God's words, not his own.

 

22 minutes ago, Adstar said:

So yeah i cannot see how we can get anywhere when we do not believe in the same Book..

What book do you believe in? I believe in the Bible.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Edited March 17, 2018 by TrevorL

[Adstar]

1 minute ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again adstar,

 

I am not a KJV only advocate, but the KJV is my favourite Bible. I believe that the Bible is inspired, but we do not have the original scrolls and manuscripts and parchments and therefore any of our English Bibles are only sincere attempts to translate the Bible.

 

It is up to you whether you accept what I have stated or not. I believe that the Angel was God’s messenger, not God Himself. Thus what the Angel said was God's words, not his own.

 

What book do you believe in? I believe in the Bible.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

If you believe the KJV is not without error then you do not believe it is the inspired word of God...

If two people are discussing religion they must agree on a standard and you do not believe that any book can be a standard..

Therefore your religion can be anything you want it to be.. Thus you can reject any Biblical scriptures you have a personal problem with because hey they are all faulty translations...

My religion is based on the KJV which i recognize as the Word of God..

Yes i totally reject all that you have said and all that you will ever say because you have no foundation ,, You have no Rock,, All you have is your own fallible faulty human judgement..

And again you do not believe in the Bible because you believe it is not without fault.. If some of it is faulty then you cannot have faith in any of it..

So please don't end your post by saying you believe in the Bible ... You don't .. You trust in your own thinking of what should be right and go searching for translations that appease your thinking...

There are hundreds of translations, catering to people like you TrevorL  For ever twist there is a twisted version tailor made to suit..