Romans 3:11-18

[mrs]

Hear about the calvinist that fell down the stairs?

He got up and said"I,m glad I got that over with!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[book_wirm]

Good postings, on both sides of the issue. I have enjoyed reading what everyone has to say. I wanted to follow up on the "predestintaion by forknowledge" issue that I saw raised a little before. This is often used by those who hold to the supremacy of free will in salvation to show that although God does predestine His children to salvation it is based on His ability to know ahead of time what each individual will choose. I don't see this at all in the scriptures, in fact, the idea of foreknowing lends itself more readily to the predestination side of the camp than anything else. Before I dig into the scriptures to back this statement up let me first say that predestination based on foreknowledge as the "free willers" understand it is no predestination at all. God is made to be reactionary. I cannot help but find that idea vulgar.

But consider what is meant by God "knowing" His children before hand. There are three possible interpretations for this. The first we have already seen defined by those that cling to free will: that it is God knowing what each person will do before they do it. The second, and equally incorrect view, is that God does not know everything, that He knows His own, but that those who are not His are outside of His spectrum of knowledge. Few hold this idea, and thank God for that. The third interpretation, which I believe is true to the scripture is this: God's foreknowledge of His children goes far beyond an "awareness" of us to the establishing of an intimate relationship.

In Mattew 7:23 we read what will be said to those in the final judgment who are not God's: I never KNEW you: depart from me...

We cannot assume that God was unaware of these individuals or the "choice" they would make. He is God and He says:

Isaiah 46:9-10

Remeber the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, AND FROM ANCIENT TIMES THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT YET DONE, saying My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God most surely knew these people in the general sense of the word, but He had no intimate relationship with them. Why do I believe "know" "knew" and "foreknew" imply relationship? The Jewish use of the words has been an idiom for the sexual and intimate relationship between a man and wife since Moses' time.

Matthew 1:24-25

The Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And KNEW her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Gen 4:1, 17

And Adam KNEW Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain...

And Cain KNEW his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch...

If God knows everything then how could the following statements be true unless by "knew" and "known" He means an intimate relationship?

Amos 3:2 You only have I KNOWN of all the families of the earth...(said to Israel)

Jeremiah 1:4-5a

The word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Before I formed thee in the belly I KNEW thee...

It is by understanding this that Romans 8:29-30 must be understood for it is by this understanding that it becomes the beautiful statement of God's ultimate grace to His children.

Romans 8:29-30

For whom He did FOREKNOW (ie. intiate a personal relationship with), He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

I am nowhere in that process that my salvation might be ALL of God and NONE of myself.

In Christ,

Eric

[mrs]

Amen book wirm!

I am just now seeing all this thru new eyes, and it makes sooo much sense this way.God chose us, bought us, and we are His forever! Praise His name

...smiles...

[RGR]

Amen book wirm!

  I am just now seeing all this thru new eyes, and it makes sooo much sense this way.God chose us, bought us, and we are His forever!    Praise His name

...smiles...

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Amen, sister! Nothing can separate us from the wonderful love of God!!!!

[Gerioke]

Hear about the calvinist that fell down the stairs?

He got up and said"I,m glad I got that over with!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was predestined to fall down the stairs

He knew it was coming

It's a joke

[Fiosh]

Hear about the calvinist that fell down the stairs?

He got up and said"I,m glad I got that over with!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was predestined to fall down the stairs

He knew it was coming

It's a joke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To which the Catholic replied, "Your choice"

(that was a joke, too)

[Gerioke]

[RGR]

Hear about the calvinist that fell down the stairs?

He got up and said"I,m glad I got that over with!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was predestined to fall down the stairs

He knew it was coming

It's a joke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and not a very good one at that, lol!

[mrs]

Agreed, Ronnie

[Guest Johannes]

Book Wirm, that is an excellent post my friend. Thank you for sharing.