I've changed my mind. I now believe the "earth" is 6k years old

[Retrobyter]

On 5/17/2023 at 9:26 PM, DeighAnn said:

A theory?  A theory is when there in NOTHING written but everything is an assumption upon what is written.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but it IS a theory because all of it is a bunch of assumptions!

On 5/17/2023 at 9:26 PM, DeighAnn said:

BUT we READ THE WORDS OF GOD THAT SAY

the DRAGON was in heaven and 

he ruled over kings and kingdoms and had great power

he cast 1/3 of the stars to earth

the angels and sons of God rejoiced to see the earth being created

till iniquity was found in him he was perfect, the full pattern

that he is of the kingdoms of the world

that he was in the garden ALREADY THE SERPENT

that God didn't create the earth in a state of void and darkness

that Satan was, isn't and will be again

that we are partakers in flesh and blood JUST like Christ

that he FOREKNEW some, who are preordained, the gifts and calling without repentance

we were made in OUR IMAGE and will be in OUR image again in our spiritual bodies

This is a HODGE-PODGE of statements taken out of their contexts. Furthermore, some of these are misquoted! The Messiah - the Christ - would not like any of this taught as though on His authority!

On 5/17/2023 at 9:26 PM, DeighAnn said:

NONE OF THOSE ARE MY WORDS...EVERYONE OF THEM ARE GODS.  And there are more than just those....We either believe them or we go with

YEA HATH GOD SAID, which is NOTHING more than putting to QUESTION what GOD SAYS OUTRIGHT.... 

Those are the only options...

There IS another option. One should learn to read the Scriptures correctly, getting what GOD said from the Scriptures (exegesis), and not trying to find what one ALREADY believes in the Scriptures (eisegesis)! Eisegesis is BACKWARD thinking, and it is BOUND to steer one in the wrong direction.

On 5/17/2023 at 9:26 PM, DeighAnn said:

SURE EVERYONE can say they don't believe what is written BUT NOT BECAUSE they have ANYTHING that proves it wrong other than IN THE BEGINNING which OBVIOUSLY isn't the beginning because GOD IS ETERNAL and 15000 years an eternity does not make.

One must BELIEVE what is written AS IS! One should NOT be trying to REWRITE what was written!

[Roymond]

On 5/6/2023 at 4:45 PM, BibleWords said:

 

If some one who had never read or heard of the Bible and had never heard any theories about it suddenly picked up Genesis and read it for the first time, they would believe it for exactly what it says.

No, they wouldn't -- they would believe what they think it says based on the arrogant assumption that it is in translation what it appears to be to them without any effort to understand that it is ancient literature.

On 5/6/2023 at 4:45 PM, BibleWords said:

There is no doubt that Genesis is giving a literal account of creation as any unbiased reader would conclude.

Except it isn't -- it isn't that kind of literature!

Reading it in English and treating it like it's a friend's great-grandfather's diary of events he witnessed is arrogance in ignorance.  To be "an unbiased reader" one would have to first of all never have seen it before and second of all read it in the Hebrew after third of all having studied enough ancient Hebrew that one could just pick it up and read plus fourth of all recognize that it is ancient literature written for ancient people and fifth of all understanding the worldview of the ancient writer and those ancient people.  The moment you read it in translation it's impossible to be an unbiased reader because you're not reading it as what it is/

On 5/6/2023 at 4:45 PM, BibleWords said:

All of the far fetched ideas of a gap theory or thousand year days or pre-creation existence of  created beings or other nonsense that the Bible does not teach are a feeble effort to somehow coddle the false teaching of evolutionary theory.

 

This much is mostly true.  But devout scholars long before Galileo ever picked up a telescope read vast periods of time when they read the first Genesis Creation account, which demonstrates that what's happening these days is that people are reading it from a scientific worldview that demands that God conform to that worldview by forcing the ancient writer to set down things in a way that would make modern folks happy.  Unless you can step out of a modern materialistic worldview you cannot understand what the first Creation account is saying!

And what it is saying is not even relevant to evolution; evolution could be true, or it could be false, and it makes not a bit of difference because the writer of that account was doing three things at once, and none of them care in the least about science:  he was setting forth an account of a great accomplishment of a mighty king using one literary form; he was describing the establishment and filling of God's great Temple using another literary form at the same time; and he was totally trashing on the gods of Egypt by using the order of events in their creation story except taking everything they called gods and saying, no, those are creations of YHWH-Elohim and are thus His servants (one way to summarize that is that the writer was telling any Egyptians who might read it that "All your gods are belong to YHWH!").

 

 

[Roymond]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:11 PM, BibleWords said:

No evidence for any pre-adamic age or prior world civilization.

Nor is the evidence in favor of any of the other stuff being said.  That "Gap" idea is wrong on the Hebrew grammar, on the Hebrew vocabulary, and on the Greek grammar.  It can only be upheld by ignoring the actual languages and their grammar, as I have explained patiently.

[Roymond]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:58 PM, Retrobyter said:

Secondly, the first verse is more of a summation of the rest of the chapter because in the rest of the chapter, God NAMES the firmament "heaven" or "shaamaayim" in verse 8 which, with the definite article prefix, is "haashaamayim" in verse 1!  God also NAMES the dry land "earth" or "'erets" in verse 10 which, with the definite article prefix, is "haa'aarets" in verse 1! This makes verse 1 a SUMMATION - a SYNOPSIS - of what is to follow! And, that is COMMON in Hebrew literature.

Besides that, "the heavens and the earth" is a phrase that meant "everything there is".

On 5/7/2023 at 2:58 PM, Retrobyter said:

Then, they accepted the notion that light waves, like sound waves, could be shifted in their wavelengths by the Dopplar Effect.

They didn't "accept the notion", they observed the effect and measured it.  It's put to practical use in a number of modern devices including the familiar police radar

On 5/7/2023 at 2:58 PM, Retrobyter said:

This gave them the redshift and the blueshift in the wavelengths of stars in their spectra, supposedly identifying light sources that were moving away from us and those moving toward us.

Actually not "supposedly", but certainly because the Doppler Effect with light was not a "notion" but an effect observed in nature and shown in the lab.  When they found redshift and blueshift they recognized this effect at work.

On 5/7/2023 at 2:58 PM, Retrobyter said:

And, between paralax measurements and the redshifts and blueshifts, they have concluded the immense sizes of the universe, and since there were more redshifts than blueshifts, the expansion of our universe.

It's exactly as if you were sitting in a van with multiple police radar systems and almost all the cars showed positive velocities --that's what a "redshift" is, the result of a positive velocity away from the observer.  The only assumption involved is that the way light behaves is the same everywhere in the universe, which follows from God being faithful.  Just as the observer in that police van would correctly conclude that almost all the cars were moving away from the van, so astronomers correctly conclude that almost all the galaxies are moving away from us.

On 5/7/2023 at 2:58 PM, Retrobyter said:

This, in turn, led to the theoretic assumption of a "big bang," which supposedly started the expansion.

The "Big Bang" was not an assumption, it was the conclusion by a good Christian that since almost all the galaxies are moving apart, then in the past they were closer together, and in the very distant past they must have all been in the same place.

Many astronomers and physicists at the time tried to avoid the conclusion because it meant that the universe had a beginning, which meant there was a Creator, and scientists don't like having to deal with things they can't measure.

On 5/7/2023 at 2:58 PM, Retrobyter said:

Do we really think that human beings have discovered in 158 years more than God could reveal in 6,000 years?!

This question doesn't make sense.  Cosmologists are the first to admit that we're like kids at the beach thinking that because they waded in the little waves that got their feet wet then they'd been in the ocean. 

[Roymond]

On 5/8/2023 at 6:08 AM, FreeGrace said:

No offense, but putting the Hebrew language is not at all helpful.  While it does show that you have training in the language, it proves nothing to me.

. . . .

Once again, giving the actual Hebrew or transliteration doesn't help anyone except those who know the language.

 

That you make these two statements indicates that you should be silent and stop trying to teach people who know something you do not. 

You do not know Greek; you do not know Hebrew -- yet you arrogantly presume to tell people who do that they are wrong.  That is the pride of the flesh.

[Roymond]

On 5/11/2023 at 8:45 AM, ChristB4us said:

Day 2 was Him creating gravity when separating the upper atmosphere from the water planet He had created below.

 

Now that's an interesting idea......

[Roymond]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:49 AM, BeyondET said:

The Hebrew phrase (tohu wa-bohu) means as well "bewildered and astonished"

 

Or as a rabbi I knew put it, "unorganized and useless'; "bewildered and astonished" is a much later meaning, but it serves to point to the fact that trying to make "tohu wa bohu" fit in just a few English words is difficult at best.

"Tohu" by itself can be used to refer to a desert with sand dunes; they are considered to be "without form" because they change all the time, just as the waves of the sea are considered to be without form because they don't stay put (this is an awesome aspect of Jesus walking on the water to people back then:  the waves of the sea were like the formless chaos of the waters back at the start of Genesis, yet here comes Jesus imposing order just by walking on them!).

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Roymond

[Roymond]

On 5/12/2023 at 4:37 AM, FreeGrace said:

On 5/11/2023 at 2:24 PM, BeyondET said:

The wasteland from a supernova is where planet earth formed.

Interesting.  So this is a denial of Gen 1:1 then.  I will believe the Bible rather than an opinion.  

For this I must rebuke you!  You accuse a brother of denying Genesis 1:1 when all that he has denied is your very, very narrow and uninformed opinion that you keep trying to impose on people who now better.

[Roymond]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:27 PM, FreeGrace said:

On 5/12/2023 at 10:24 AM, teddyv said:

Can God not redeem these ancient stories and ideas into a narrative that reveals his character to a people that are thoroughly steeped in a culture of gods and myths?

Why would He?  He speaks TRUTH always.  Yet, you think that somehow, God would use ridiculous myths to describe the scene where mankind came from???  Seriously?

It is a fact that the order of events in the first Genesis Creation account follow the order of events in the Egyptian creation story.  The children of Israel would have known the Egyptian version, so you have two choices: either the Genesis writer took the Egyptian myth and re-told it to teach the children of Israel about God, or the Egyptian story was very close to the truth.

I don't for a moment believe that the Egyptians were very close to the truth.

[Roymond]

On 5/13/2023 at 4:08 AM, FreeGrace said:

 Are you fluent in ancient Hebrew?

Whether he is or not is unimportant since there are at least two people here who are at the very least familiar with ancient Hebrew and are clearly able to read it -- yet you ignore them when they tell you that you are wrong.