The Meaning of Lukewarmness Understood

[Willie T]

Here is one that goes a bit deeper on the idea.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjHpvn6ouLaAhUhpFkKHQtFBeYQtwIIJzAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9EvFnwD9zpY&usg=AOvVaw3zZtTosWZ5vYdMltpFi73n

The "Lukewarm" part starts at about 7:25.

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Willie T
Removed video. Please post videos in the appropriate video forum.

[FinallyAlive]

19 minutes ago, Yowm said:

So you claim direct revelation from God and expect me to receive it with my heart? That is like a Mormon asking me to receive their prophets teaching by the confirmation of a burning in my bosom. Are you any better than the Apostles who considered it noble that the Bereans checked out their message with Scripture in Acts 17:10-11.

You seem to write long posts, mostly without Scripture and now I see why... your exaltation of your so called revelations above Scripture.

Galatians 5:13-26. I always think of you when I read this. Both for the implications of life free from the desire for sin as well as the bickering aspect. (To which I will admit I’m not sure how to approach you about without also falling into that trap.)

But beyond that, even the past quarrels that have taken place among the pages of these forums, I implore you to remember that prophecy is indeed a spiritual gift. Although Gideon (and most everyone else) are weary of those labels, (and rightfully so, given the modern company of those who actually have claimed that title for self gain) they nonetheless are possible through a his Spirit, spelled out explicitly in both Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12. Gideon doesn’t claim to be a prophet, and yet... what would make you listen to someone, in this modern age, if they did indeed have a new message from God? Would you even consider it possible?

[FinallyAlive]

9 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Prophet or no prophet, apostle or table server, it is our duty to test the spirits by God's Word. Sorry, I can't sit silent when I see red flags go up, I need to at least ask where in Scripture their view is supported. Cults are comprised of docile sheep being fed by wolves.

I’m having a difficult time seeing what you consider to be so egregious that has been said in this thread? I want to know because I’d either like to help... or get to the bottom of why you seem so opposed. Is it that you don’t think there are a majority of “lukewarm” Christians today... or something else?

[FinallyAlive]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

I'm having a difficult time figuring out why you asked that question. Maybe if you give me one of my quotes, I can explain why I asked or remarked the way I did.

Ahhh... okay. I am asking if there was something specific that caused your call for alarm.  You had mentioned “red flags”... but what were they? Something someone said that you didn’t agree with? And if so... what was it?

Maybe I should just ask:

Do you take issue with the thread and its posts just because of its author?

All of us here (if for the right reasons,) are genuinely seeking the Truth, the same (One True) God, and have all been mercifully saved by the same Savior, Christ Jesus...

If we took the time to adhere to James 1:19, we might benefit.

Six months ago, I could probably quote nine scriptures, and had no working knowledge of what the Holy Spirit actually was. And yet, I called myself a believer. I still prayed, I still “believed”... but honestly, my understanding was entirely infantile. Then, after a miraculous conversion, I immediately was drawn to the New Testament. ALL OF IT. Over and over again, in as many different versions as I could handle. And the most amazing part? When I read the words, it was like I already knew them, and they were glorious, wonderful affirmations. When I had religious discussions (with anyone and everyone who would listen) when we had questions, I’d say something... then we would go to His Word, and amazingly, they were always the same. That’s by no power or virtue of mine. The Holy Spirit is awesome indeed... and sharing in the Mind of Christ is absolutely life changing. I knew what it meant to be truly “born again”. My ever-present desire to sin left me. I was compelled to “un-tell” all the lies and half truths that I had carried as an unneeded burden for so many decades. I was filled with love and patience where there was once angst and unforgiveness. (Have you ever asked God to truly help you grow and mature in specific areas? What a powerful and frightening, uplifting and mind-blowing week you’re in for.)

Why am I mentioning all of this? Because while I sought every single Christian influence I had ever had in my life... when I spoke to them about my experience, they were all at a loss for a solid explanation. But they all agreed that God had fully changed me. So then... why me? And what was my purpose? I prayed every single night... out loud, seeking His answers. On one occasion, I was seeking someone else for  fellowship... someone who could also have lengthy conversations about the Bible, Jesus, God’s promises... and through a very specific google search, I found a posting from Gideon....... from sometime in 2013. He had planted a seed five years before it sprouted before my eyes. In that thread, he was talking about the same things he does now. And was reaching the same levels of either disregard or resistance. But it was so similar to my own experience, I knew I needed to reach out.

And so I did. And Gideon thoroughly and graciously talked to me. He prolifically and contextually quoted and shared Scripture with me to help me along my way (which is a main point here) and was genuinely uplifting and truly caring when I needed it. His walk with the Holy Spirit as a new creature was 11 years... mine was new, but regardless, it was profound. I had a great respect for him immediately, because I was literally crying out to God for other genuine “brothers and sisters in Christ” fellowship after mere weeks.

If you find true fault in what he says, by all means, speak up. If you find fault in what I say, let me know. But please, I ask of you to not label or judge a fellow brother unfairly. (Likewise, if it seems that I’ve singled you out, it’s not out of spite, malice or vendetta or any other unrighteous reason. Instead, I truly hope and pray we one day are in complete and unrelenting agreement.) One of my most common prayers when speaking to others about what it means to be a Christian is that I never mislead or blaspheme, even in ignorance.

Edited April 30, 2018 by FinallyAlive
(spelling)

[Not me]

@FinallyAlive

Your words are a breath of fresh air. Thanks for posting them. 

Much love in Christ, Not me 

[Gideon]

5 hours ago, Yowm said:

So you claim direct revelation from God and expect me to receive it with my heart? That is like a Mormon asking me to receive their prophets teaching by the confirmation of a burning in my bosom. Are you any better than the Apostles who considered it noble that the Bereans checked out their message with Scripture in Acts 17:10-11?

You seem to write long posts, mostly without Scripture and now I see why... your exaltation of your so called revelations above Scripture.

Brother, I have amd will continue to reach out to you in love. All I am asking is that you condider what is being shared and to take it before the Lord. The message I have been given to share benefits people. Multitides need help, for satan is wearing them out. Nothing I am sharing is against scripture. In fact, it is backed by it, if one has eyes to see. I have gone to great extremes to try to answer your questions and have done so patiently and kindly, despite your contrary attitude. 

Yown, if you are umsure of the truth of what I share, I get that and I can accept that. But I am trying to help struggling Christians to walk in victory. Your trying to tear down with subtle biting and unkind comments is not weighing things I have said, it is already judging them as wrong and dangerous. Since you are the one wanting to make sure all is done with scriptural backing, simply share where you think scripture shows me in error and I will do my best to explain any variance you might see.

I have made my position clear here. I simply am asking those struggling with their walk to consider what is being shared and to take it before rhe Lord with their Bibles open. If you disagree with what I share, no problem. I would simply ask that you make whatever comments you want to make in love, and if anything I say is wrong in your eyes, then to point out scripturally where you think there is error and why. I do ask, however, based upon forum rules, that you stop the negative comments. If you want to start a thread to oppose what is being shared, that is fine. I hope you agree. 

Blessings,

Gideon

[Gideon]

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Let's take a look at Galatians while we're at it:

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another." (Galatians 5:15-26, NASB)

But in quoting that, you neglect what was also written by Paul in this very chapter:

"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves." (Galatians 5:1-12, NASB, emphasis mine)

Let alone this passage:

"Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting. For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet." (Romans 16:17-20, NASB, emphasis mine)

Paul's admonition in Galatians was an appeal to the brethren for peace and to not tear one another apart; it was never intended to simply let whatever was said by another as "a revelation" pass without being examined in the light of Scripture. Prophecy is never  done aside from the Word of God, and anyone claiming direct revelation from God is essentially speaking for God, which is what a prophet is about in the first place.

Yowm is correct on his assertion, as he is also correct about us not taking someone's word without first comparing it to what God has already said in Scriptures:

Scripture tells us:

" Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.” Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”  (Revelation 19:9-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

And in Jesus' testimony (which are the Gospels), He has said:

""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."" (Matthew 7:15-20, NASB, emphasis mine)

There are more than enough people out there (with a number who have made their way to this and other forums) who claim to hear directly from the Lord, yet what they say does not mesh with Scripture. Those of us who believe have a responsibility to make sure that what is being taught is not new-age garbage, outright heresy or the say-so of those who speak from flights of fancy.

I agree wholeheartedly.And if you re-read any of my posts, I think you will find I never have alluded to someone believing what Is being shared without taking it to the Lord with their Bible open. I went to  great lengths to provide scriptural support for my belief that an awakening in the church will happen... is happening. I never heard anyone refute those verses, although it may have slipped by me. 

But the awakening will be as a result of the main message, that we can actually, by faith, put on our new natures and find protection from the temptations and accusations of the enemy.

It is a wise thing to take the word of God amd apply it to our walks to see if we are walking correctly, and also to do so with words shared by others, for rhere are indeed counterfeits. But do we see that many things we read, we simply do not believe they can mean what they plainly say to us. Consider:

We are told He will keep is from falling. 

We are told He will actually ‘cause us’ to walk as obedient children. 

We are told He has delivered us from the power of darkness.

We are told if we abide in Him, we will not fulfill the lusts of rhe flesh. 

We are told He will not allow us to be tempted more rhsn we can handle without giving into sin.

We are told that our shield of faith will quench all rhe fiery arrows of the enemy. 

We are told that Jesus will make us free indeed and then defines this freedom as freedom from committing sin. 

I can go on, but here is my point. We have accepted many things as truths that simply do not line up with scripture. What I am sharing is that these promises are true and that we can walk in them today. We have misunderstood  the truth, the reality, the power of our new natures that every Christian possesses, and because of that, we have slipped far from the state fo purity of the early church. God is awakening us to these truths and  we will find to our joy and amazement that we can indeed walk in full victory over rhe world, rhe flesh and rhe devil. 

Is what I teach dangerous? A cult? Am I a false teacher? Think about this for a minite. Why would the enemy send a messenger into the flock to tell them how to resist him?  To walk in victory over him? All I am saying is that when we look to see if what is being shared is scriptural, we need to apply that same standard to what  we have already been taught is true as well. 

Blessings, 

Gideon

 

 

 

 

[Heleadethme]

8 hours ago, FinallyAlive said:

Galatians 5:13-26. I always think of you when I read this. Both for the implications of life free from the desire for sin as well as the bickering aspect. (To which I will admit I’m not sure how to approach you about without also falling into that trap.)

But beyond that, even the past quarrels that have taken place among the pages of these forums, I implore you to remember that prophecy is indeed a spiritual gift. Although Gideon (and most everyone else) are weary of those labels, (and rightfully so, given the modern company of those who actually have claimed that title for self gain) they nonetheless are possible through a his Spirit, spelled out explicitly in both Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12. Gideon doesn’t claim to be a prophet, and yet... what would make you listen to someone, in this modern age, if they did indeed have a new message from God? Would you even consider it possible?

Perhaps it could be said that being lukewarm is really halting between two opinions.  But just would like to mention here, that there really are no new messages from God, apart from personal type guidance and instruction.  Any doctrinal or prophetic type message to the church that the LORD gives will be found in scripture.......scripture itself says there is nothing new under the sun.  When the Lord gives a word through revelation or vision or dream, or however He chooses to speak, and if it is from Him, He will show confirmation of it in His written word.  Sometimes we must ask and seek that confirmation though.

Along with confirming the word/vision/revelation, other reasons that we seek scriptural confirmation/verification has to do with making sure we understand what the Lord is saying to us correctly, rightly dividing it.......and also because in that way He receives the glory.  It is easy to miss the mark in our understanding of something the Lord speaks to us, as well as it robs Him of His glory if it isn't made clear that He has already gone before and written it all down long before it came to be.  Because, as scripture says.....He Himself magnifies His word above all His name.  So it is necessary and important that we give glory to the Lord in how all truth belongs to Him and where He has foreseen and planned all things, ruling & reigning, and already had it all written down.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Heleadethme

[Gideon]

44 minutes ago, Yowm said:

No, not specifically, but anyone exalting private revelation over Scripture is a red flag.

 

44 minutes ago, Yowm said:

No, not specifically, but anyone exalting private revelation over Scripture is a red flag.

Brother, the message God has given to me both  to walk in, and to share all came about because even though it put me under more guilt and desperation, I refused to lower the standard I saw presented in the word... 

Let all who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity. 

And when God had mercy on me and showed me what I had missed, something I knew with my head but had never believed in my heart. I was asked to not only accept as true that my old nature deid when He died, but also to believe  that when Christ rose from the dead to newness of life, so to was I made new. I had missed totally that clearly written step in Romans 6 for 38 years. And what was that? I had never appropriated those triths as MY truths, and by faith put off my old nature and put on my new one. I had never reckoned myself dead to sinand alive unto Him. 

You see, it is that truth, believed in with all our hearts, that becomes our shield of faith. We are asked to believe that it really is no more us that live, but Christ who now lives in us. So when satan comes accusing or tempting, we stand with the same “It is written.....” that our savior did. We no longer listen to his lies. We have been planted on high ground and  told to occupy til He comes. This is far different from believing we are still old natured children,  jist sinners saved by grace, but not delivered by it. The latter leaves rhe urden of change on our shoulders and the standard is impossible to live up to. 

But praise God, when we truly understand that we ARE new creatures, and use that truth as a weapon to fight off the devil, to our amazement, we find that it is on Christ’s shoulders to change us, to make is victorious, to fill us with fruits, not on ours.

We hold fast to the truth, and if.... not when.... we slip up, we repent and immediately get back up and hoist our shields of faith high again. It is not that our new nature failed us. It is simply that we start out with weak faith, mustard seed sized faith. But our faith in the truth of what Christ has accomplished on our behalf grows! 

This interim period before we become fully established in the faith, unshakeable, is our good fight of faith, and we are all going to fight it.... victoriously. No matter how weak we have been, or how strong the sin is that has bound us, there is ZERO chance of failure as long as we refuse to give in to doubt as to His promises. Our God.... and His promises.... cannot fail us. 

Blessings, 

Gideon

[Gideon]

12 hours ago, Not me said:

@Gideon

After having gone over your posts a couple of times.  You pose a good question pertaining to the second definition as per Strong’s concordance. So I considered, would a carnal Christian be considered lukewarm? The answer would be  “no”. For all Christians start off that way. So what if a Christian refused to grow? Well, that’s a interesting question. The hallmarks of a carnal Christian who refuses to grow are pretty much the same as the standard definition of a lukewarm Christian. Which to make a long story short, could be summed up as being controlled by the “old creation”regardless of what form it takes.   Most interesting question? 

You definitely have given me something to kick around before the Lord. And anything that causes me to press into Him more, is a good thing. So a “hat tip” to you, and may you gain a increase in Christ in your innermost being. 

Much love in Christ, Not me. 

You asked if a carnal Christian is a lukewarm Christian. It is an excellent question. Let’s recall the children of Israel on the exodus to the promised land. There was no getting around the wilderness. They had to pass through it, and so do we. For them, it was to be a three week journey, but because of unbelief, it took rhem forty years instead. They were undoubtedly God’s children, bur they were ‘carnal’ as they left Egypt. So too, when we leave the world behimd and bcome God’s children, there is a wilderness period thst we mist pass through and as we do, we too are carnal believers. 

But here is what happened to the Israelites. They were filled with fear rather than faith when confronted with the fact that there were giants in THEIR land that God had already given them. And what happened. They turned back into the wilderness to live out their lives. They were still God’s children. He still supernaturally kept them with water from rocks and manna every morning. But..... they never enjoyed their inheritance. Why? Unbelief. They remained carnal, when that was never God’s plan for them. 

And guess what? We too have turned a designated short journey through the wilderness as carnal children of God, into a lifelong journey. God is still with us. We are healed, but only slightly. We too have been robbed of our birthright by our unbelief, and thus, when we should be standing as overcomers of the world, rhe flesh and the devil, instead we are prey for the enemy to bind us, even when the prison doors have been thrown wide open. Thus we have remained carnal, fleshly, and believe it is impossible for God to actually ‘cause us’ to walk in full victory. 

This is all about to change. We have a promised land to take.... in this life..... and every step we take will be ours. Glory to God! We, God’s people, His bride, are about to see ourselves prepared to meet our brodegroom!

Blessings, brother. 

Gids