Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[angels4u]

11 minutes ago, Butero said:

Saying that a real Christian wouldn't want to sin does not show that they do not believe they can sin all they want.  

If you must accept Jesus and make a public confession, yours is as much a works based salvation as anyone else's.  That is why Calvinists say you have a works based salvation.  Accepting Christ and making a confession is every bit as much of a work as obeying Christ in not living in open sin after getting saved.  Every one of those things are based on things we do.  The only way your salvation would not be works based to some degree is if you had to do nothing to get saved, not even accepting Christ and making confession.  Yours is the epitome of a works based salvation.  

Yes, we were qualified to be saved.  We were qualified because of what Jesus did on the cross.  That made us qualified, but to be saved, we had to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.  We become disqualified through willful sin after getting saved.  If we were not qualified to be saved, nobody is saved.  

I see a lot of pride in many of the OSAS members of WCF.  It is obvious by the things they say they are full of pride and think themselves superior to those who don't share their views.  Nobody believes what Jesus did is not fully sufficient.  We just believe God chooses not to let people into heaven that regard what his Son did so lightly, they go back into sin after being saved.  It is God's doing, not ours.  Jesus' blood is sufficient to save everyone that doesn't ever accept him, but he chooses not to.  

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I see a lot of pride in many of the OSAS members of WCF.  It is obvious by the things they say they are full of pride and think themselves superior to those who don't share their views. 

I can tell you that I do very much believe in OSAS, I'm not a Calvinist (far from it ) and I do respect people who believe different, that's why it's nice to be able to dicuss this topic so we know from each other where we stand in this doctrine ,I'm glad it's not a matter of Salvation and some day soon,those differences don't matter anymore ,but in the mean time I'm OSAS and I don't sin thinking my sins will be forgiven , I live for Jesus and believe that He can and will help me until the end!

In Him I stand ,He is my Rock and my Salvation

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Butero said:

Saying that a real Christian wouldn't want to sin does not show that they do not believe they can sin all they want.  

Actually, it goes further than that.   The caricature of the OSAS doctrine is that we believe that once you're saved, you're free to fornicate, steal, murder, commit adultery and stay saved.   That has always been the value that has been assigned to the doctrine even though that is not what we teach.

We don't believe we can sin as much as want to, because our "want to" has been changed.  We are a transformed people who live to serve God.  We have no prompting to live in sin and rebel against God.

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If you must accept Jesus and make a public confession, yours is as much a works based salvation as anyone else's.  That is why Calvinists say you have a works based salvation.  Accepting Christ and making a confession is every bit as much of a work as obeying Christ in not living in open sin after getting saved.  Every one of those things are based on things we do.  The only way your salvation would not be works based to some degree is if you had to do nothing to get saved, not even accepting Christ and making confession.  Yours is the epitome of a works based salvation.  

No, you are ignoring the Bible's use of "works" in order to have something to knock down.   Accepting Christ is not a meritorious works.  It is not attempting to earn salvation, so you're really not able to make the case that we have a work's based system unless you artificially expand the term "works"  to include things like repentance, but that forces one into claiming that Bible is contradicting itself by claiming that we are not saved by works, but then claims that we need to repent, thus commit a "work."   

Again, the Bible tells us to do things like repent and confess our sins, but those are not meritorious deeds and do not fall into what the Bible means when it says that we are not saved by "works."  The means of receiving salvation (repentance, confession) cannot be artificially assigned the value of works, simply because you are desperately trying to make OSAS into a works-based system.  

 

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Yes, we were qualified to be saved.  We were qualified because of what Jesus did on the cross.  That made us qualified, but to be saved, we had to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. 

LOL, what Jesus did on the cross did not make you "qualified" for salvation.   The Bible doesn't teach that.  The Bible teaches that we are sinners and as sinners there is nothing in us that qualifies us.   To be "qualified" means that we possess a personal merit that makes us worthy of salvation.   Jesus work on the cross did not supply us any merit at all.  Rather it is the merits of Jesus that are imputed (credited) to us, as sinners who are now in legal right standing with God.  I am in legal right standing due only to Jesus who is the only person who ever pleased God and it is based solely on what He did that I am saved.   I have no qualifications at all.

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We become disqualified through willful sin after getting saved.

Which is, again, the epitome of works righteousness, because if what you call a "willful' sin is enough to make me lose salvation, then by keeping myself from committing those sins, by doing what I should, I am keeping myself saved.  

 

 

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If we were not qualified to be saved, nobody is saved.  

Wrong.  No one can get saved until they understand that they are utterly unqualified, sinful wretches qualified for nothing but God's eternal contempt. 

 

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  Nobody believes what Jesus did is not fully sufficient. 

Ultimately, anti-OSAS people do believe that.   

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We just believe God chooses not to let people into heaven that regard what his Son did so lightly, they go back into sin after being saved. 

Yep, salvation by works.

[angels4u]

5 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Butero :

If you're talking about the people who you're discussing this topic with , I do know that they love the Lord for 100% ,they don't want to sin but we all still sin because we're still living in this body ,we're living in a fallen world who needs Jesus, believing in OSAS does not mean you can sin and get away with it, born again means in my opinion to love the Lord so much that you want to live for Him and not sin but if we sin and confess our sins He will always forgive us,no sin is too big or small to forgive. I will never question anybody's Salvation as that is between them and the Lord, but the people you're talking too who believe in OSAS are saved by grace,just like you are, they're no better or less but they have a firm belief that God will keep us until the end. Really what can we do to say saved if it isn't all for God? Can we do anything on our own? Do we have to help Him to stay saved?  Grace grace -wonderful grace

No,all we do for Jesus is because we love Him and if we backslide, He will gently lead us back in the fold ...as long as we're real believers and not just believers in name only..

 

The people you're talking too are not Cavinist,I just want to make that clear ..

9

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

12 minutes ago, Butero said:

You are teaching salvation by works, no matter how desperately you try to deny it. 

No, I am not.   Repentance and confession are not what the Bible defines as "works."  You are trying to change the definition in order to have an argument to make.   But you simply have no biblical leg to stand on.   Bible says we are justified by faith apart from works.   But we have to exercise faith, so by your definition faith would be a "work."  But that would mean "justification by faith apart from works"  is self-contradicting and the Bible doesn't do that. 

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That is why Calvinists openly say that anyone outside their group is believing in a works based salvation.

That is not what Calvinists say.

 

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  You earned it by accepting Christ and making confession.  Not sinning is not a meritorious work either.  It doesn't save us.  If it did, we would never have to accept Christ, but would simply choose not to sin.  If what I am teaching is works based, what you are teaching is works based, no matter how desperately you try to make a distinction.  

LOL, no that is not true.   What YOU teach IS works based because it is about living right in order to remain saved.   It ultimately makes you the Savior because you are, at the end of the day saving yourself, by not committing certain sins.   That bears no resemblance at all to what the Bible says about how salvation is received (faith, confession of sin, repentance).  You simply cannot claim that those things are the same because they are the means by which salvation is received, not a means of earning it.    You are trying to redefine key terms in order to bolster a false claim against what I believe.

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You do teach that someone can fornicate, steal, murder, commit adultery, and remain saved.  That is the whole point of unconditional security. 

No, I don't   and that is not the point of eternal security at all.   Eternal security is true because it is predicated on the genuineness of salvation, meaning that a person has been truly changed and is a new creation  and has a  new heart that longs to serve God.   Secondly, it is predicated on the fact that God is faithful to His promises and isn't going to renege on what He has said to us.  The point of eternal security is a desire to grow in Holiness and to serve a faithful God who never lies.

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I know Christians that hold to that doctrine that do those things.  I worked with one guy that was an OSAS believer that died in the act of fornication.  There is a woman I know casually that is an OSAS believer that tried to kill her husband.  I worked with a guy whose wife believes in OSAS and is a good member of a Baptist Church that parties all the time and gets drunk.  

So what?   I know people who believe in OSAS who have all kinds of problems and don't live and right and I know people who reject OSAS and believe they are going to Hell, claim to be Christians but prefer to remain in sin.   So any notion that rejecting OSAS is a barrier against sin isn't true.  

 

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Yes, human beings are qualified to get saved because God made them qualified after his Son died on the cross to pay the penalty for their sins.

Again, the Bible doesn't teach that.   It teaches that we are sinners and are unworthy of the salvation we have received.  We have imputed righteousness, not imparted righteousness, meaning we are still sinful, fallen creatures.   Our sin nature has not been eradicated and we do not deserve salvation.  There is nothing about us that is qualified for salvation and Jesus didn't qualify us to be saved.  He simply saved, miserable, sinful wretches.

 

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  Fallen angels are not qualified for this salvation.  Those who are in the grave are not qualified, but any living person is qualified.  If they were not qualified, they couldn't be saved.  That is an absurd argument you are making.  

No, it is the Christian argument that I am making.

[frienduff thaylorde]

Salvation is SIMPLE .    its a GIFT FROM GOD given us IN CHRIST .   We cant even call HIM LORD,   FROM THE HEART ,   LEST by the SPIRIT .

The only WORK required for salvation .    What works must we do to do the works of GOD .   BELEIVE in the ONE WHOM HE DID SEND .

Faith comes by HEARING and HEARING by THE WORD of GOD .    We saved by Grace.   For it was grace that even drew us to the SON .

And now By Faith We have access to this continued Grace .  THE WORK of GOD , lest any man boast .   But watch out ,  Many fail OF the grace of GOD .

Many do and will fall away and have a far worse ending . FOR truly it had been better to never have known the way of righteousness IN CHRIST

than after KNOWING it , to fall away.  NOW beware, lest their be in any a evil heart of unbelief in departing From HIM.

Lust can , does and will choke the WORD right out of a soul .    SIN can does and will, harden a heart .

Therefore let none be highminded,  but fear ,  let none think he stands by his own might , LEST HE FALL .   Let no man take lightly sin , lest he fall away .

Let us FOLLOW , OBEY and HEED the HOLY SPIRIT ,   IF we have that HOLY SPIRIT .    Let us follow OBEY and HEED the one who both saved and can KEEP us from falling .

But heed him not ,      KISS it all goodbye , YA AINT GONNA MAKE IT .    OBEY HIM ,  OBEY HIM .  OBEY THE ONE WHO SAVED and UNCTIONS us to do those things pleasing IN HIS SIGHT>

[enoob57]

50 minutes ago, Butero said:

Shiloh, we will just go around in circles over most of your response, and I think we have wasted enough time already, but you did miss the point I was making over OSAS believers that sin.  You claimed that OSAS believers who are really saved do not want to sin, and I was giving examples of OSAS believers that I know personally that commit serious sins.  In your doctrinal belief, they will still make it to heaven no matter what they do, even if they get drunk, try to kill their spouse, or die in the act of fornication.  You do teach that.  Would you say right now that these three people are not saved because of the way they behave and no real Christian would do such things?  Would you say that if a professing Christian fornicates, commits adultery, gets drunk every week, tries to kill their spouse, etc., that is proof they were never saved?  If so, I will acknowledge you have a point, but if you can't do that, and would say Christians may do those things and remain saved, you are saying a person can sin all they want and never lose salvation, and admitting some do live seriously sinful lives.  I wasn't claiming that people that reject OSAS live better than those who believe it.  That was never my point.  

no Shiloh's reasoning is linear straight with precept upon precept and line upon line … your writing and the points of reason is what goes in circles... we all see it! You simple will not accept instruction toward why that is. That is on you not us!

[Heb 13:8]

3 hours ago, Butero said:

try to kill their spouse

What evidence do you have that a believer in Christ would do this, and how do you know if they were true believers.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=yLshW6TNIqOc5wKRnpeIDA&q=accuser+definition&oq=accuser&gs_l=psy-ab.3.1.0l10.719.3029.0.5281.10.8.1.0.0.0.118.734.5j3.8.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.9.737.0..35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i10k1.0.j4L0HJ2vouY

[Heb 13:8]

Just now, Butero said:

That is the question.  Are you willing to say that a true believer would never do such a thing, and anyone that claims to be saved and does those kind of things absolutely are not saved and never were saved?  

God will provide a way out of murder? Is that even biblical.

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

[Behold]

On 6/8/2018 at 11:12 PM, Butero said:

That is why we are told to make our calling and election sure.  It matters in the sense that we can know we are saved if we continue to serve the Lord.  

 So, Butero,  YOUR condition for making certain you stay saved, or actually knowing you are saved, is to "continue" to serve the Lord.

Where as John the Apostle tells us we can """" Know we are saved, because we have trusted in Jesus""""".   1st John 5:13.

How does it feel to theologically contradict both Paul and John, everyday you are here?

So, the truth is, for me to believe the way you do, i have to delete Paul's Gospel from Jesus's mouth and i have to get rid of everything but Matthew, James, and Hebrews, and the Old Testament.

= I vote no., as "i'll instead place my hope in nothing less then Jesus's Blood and Righteousness"

So, i think, Butero......... i'll side with John, Paul, Jesus, and Father God, and continue to just watch you try to  work it all out by more continuance of more works, works, works.....>.

Its interesting that you will write 4000 posts, and you never talk about the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, or the Blood of Jesus, or the Atonement, or GRACE or , "Justification by Faith."

And........Romans 4:5...."to him that believeth on God who Justifies the UNGODLY", is a scripture that you'll never use, that i can promise you, =  and neither will your commentaries .

Im pretty certain that by now, im not the only one here who notices what you always completely omit (the Blood of Jesus)  from your "works to keep yourself saved" approach to going to heaven.

Buddha has the same approach, and so did Mohammed.

All "religions" of the world are doing what you are doing....they are all working to get to some type of "heaven".

Im not.

Im just simply trusting in.... "God who began salvation in me, and will be faithful to complete it",  no matter what.    Philippians 1:6

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Behold

[Blood Bought 1953]

Paul said that he preached only the Cross  of Christ.....if one is not leaning on that And that alone.....one would be an “ enemy of the Cross”Faith plus nothing

 Believing the Gospel of Paul that saves is the only thing I have ever done to “earn “ my salvation.Try as you may , it can’t be twisted into a work.Attempts to make it such are a transparent attempt to try to “ hang “ something by those that are stuck with the unscriptural , Gospel perversions that preach “ lucky repentance” onto those that have been properly taught otherwise.