God having anything-part or parcel with sin is blasphemous!

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Do you believe sin is of a created essence?

God in no way created sin .      He just gave free will my friend .

SIN is disobedience to GOD or the desire to be AS GOD or exalted in any way .

Guess you want an example .     IS IT SIN for GOD TO DESIRE TO BE EXALTED ABOVE ALL THAT IS .     NO

it is sin for man ,  YES .   God created man in his own image .   gave man free will.    

the angels , man ,   they were all given the ability to have choice . 

This might anger calvin a wee bit ,   but truth is truth .    

The only thing that was not according to our free will, but rather according to the work of GOD , grace of GOD ,  IS GRACE .

THAT is where GOD first approached us ,  we did not approach HIM FIRST , HE First approached us .

But day by day we still have free will ,    Let us obey THE SPIRIT .

Did GOD know before he created what would occur .    EVERY BIT OF IT HE DID .    FOR GOD knows all things , always has always will.

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Is there sin in innocence? Did God create the capacity for man to lose innocence when he created a tree of knowledge of good and evil? Did God just allow sin? Or did God who foreknew and predestined many to overcome sin by way of His Son Jesus and His sacrifice create both death as well as  victory  over death so that many may be with Him eternally- and not be robotics, but creatures of His love that God may dwell among and they with Him in love of Him?

 

5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

That is why sin has no part with God and God is unbounded in reality...

I corrected my post  

Because sin has no created substance but is formed completely from lie which is a perversion of truth it, sin, has absolutely nothing of God from start to finish... many people error in theology thinking sin must have been necessary for it to be but there is an eternity past where sin 'IS' not...

[enoob57]

4 hours ago, Yowm said:

The old question, If God created Lucifer knowing that he would eventually sin, thus by creating Lucifer with that foreknowledge that he would sin, we can say 'sin has no part with God' but can we say 'God has no part with sin' as far as He allowed it to happen when it was in His power not to allow the process to begin in the first place?

I can say this there is an eternity past where there was not sin and an eternity future where there is no sin and the period of sin is removed from those eternities... and we being eternal children with God have no need to give any thought past this ….

 

[Neighbor]

57 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I can say this there is an eternity past where there was not sin and an eternity future where there is no sin and the period of sin is removed from those eternities... and we being eternal children with God have no need to give any thought past this ….

 

Well there  may have been a time past were sin existed, but had not yet been punished.  It seems to me there must have been, with  the fallen angels not yet caste out of heaven. Perhaps their sin existed from the moment of their creation, perhaps not.

And, to the future, will the destruction of sin ever cease? Will the sinner ever have relief from his eternal destruction? Does his soul cease existence ever? If never then does sin  along with it's price being paid eternally  forward ever go away? Seems to me that if it does go away then the sinner has paid his price  in full too, or is freed of consequence of it. That is not what I think I read to be so. sin gets punished forever and beyond forever "to infinity and beyond".

As an "eternal child of God" I think  I do need not be, and can't risk being, so confident that I do not fear God. Fear is that respect  for his awesome power, His jealous nature, His wrath against those that do not honor Him.

The apostles were taken up short for debating which was the greatest among them. God told them each t0 be tending to themslves less they find they are not even saved themselves. With that  in mind I think though sin will be no more on a practical application  level at the new heaven and at the new earth,  it's price never ever ends.  I do think it is wise for  the saint in Christ Jesus to at least think upon that, if for no other reason than to  seek God ever more closely  without getting so confident that  arrogance raises it's ugly head instead of appreaciation of God's reconciliation of the impossible, His making the sinner white as snow pure  and acceptible in His sight.

Sin may have existed from the very first, it may also exist through all of eternity forward. As long as punishment for it lasts then perhaps  by necessity the sin is counted and measured as still existing. If it does not still exist then why the continuing punishment of and because of it? 

"Just asking " myself . I will now have to go look tob low apart the thinking and pondering with the word.

[enoob57]

59 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Well there  may have been a time past were sin existed, but had not yet been punished.  It seems to me there must have been, with  the fallen angels not yet caste out of heaven. Perhaps their sin existed from the moment of their creation, perhaps not.

I don't go anywhere in my mind unless it is formed from Scipture… so according to Scripture sin never existed before the seventh day of creation week

Gen 2:1-3

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
KJV
 

59 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

And, to the future, will the destruction of sin ever cease? Will the sinner ever have relief from his eternal destruction? Does his soul cease existence ever? If never then does sin  along with it's price being paid eternally  forward ever go away? Seems to me that if it does go away then the sinner has paid his price  in full too, or is freed of consequence of it. 

We are instructed by God to take all thought and imaginations captive by submission to His Word

2 Cor 10:5

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
KJV
Punishment for sin is everlasting according to Scripture

Matt 25:44-46

44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'  45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'  46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." 
NKJV
 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by enoob57

[JoeChan82]

This really boils down to the sovereignty of God vs the free will of man, doesn't it? Is God completely sovereign? Yes. Does man have a free will? Yes. Both of these are equally true. Did God create sin? No. Sounds illogical, doesn't it? That's because it is illogical. The truths of the Bible are spiritually discerned. We believe it, because our Bibles say it. We are foolish to the Greeks.

1Co 1:22-24  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 1:26-29  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

[enoob57]

12 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

This really boils down to the sovereignty of God vs the free will of man, doesn't it? Is God completely sovereign? Yes. Does man have a free will? Yes. Both of these are equally true. Did God create sin? No. Sounds illogical, doesn't it? That's because it is illogical. The truths of the Bible are spiritually discerned. We believe it, because our Bibles say it. We are foolish to the Greeks.

1Co 1:22-24  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 1:26-29  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

The logic is extremely so... all sin is born from lie. As God has explained Himself to us He fills eternity with His Will and in that is way, truth and life... no matter the distinction of being- truth is all there is and is seen in the subjective nature of lie: a lie is totally dependent upon truth which must exist prior to any lie. The very nature of existence of lie- truth must be in place for it to even begin... yet truth 'IS' reliant only upon itself as God's sole possession in expression of Himself without end! The very nature of free will is in God without limits, without any form of restriction, in fact the ideal of restriction was born out of lie in that truth could be bound with a beginning and it is here that lucifer began his work to proclaim himself to be god...
I know that God has explained this to me by His Word

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
KJV

In this truth I must enter the vehicle of faith without bringing anything of my first begin with me for I am not yet but I am in Him... and it is in this depth that I find God presence in me for I accept the truth born out of His Word by The Presence of The Holy Spirit within me fulfilling this verse

1 John 4:13-19

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.
KJV

and again

1 Cor 2:10-13

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
KJV

because this logic precedes sin and proceeds the same in the eternal state we have been given the truth without end as possession now and it is the power of God unto salvation Through Christ alone! Having this truth formed within us we see clearly what Jesus was teaching us by the power of The Holy Spirit

John 8:32-36

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
KJV

This is such a solid witness to my heart that I know I shall not return to the vomit of my first begin and birth because there remain no further attraction (in s/Spirit) for me... 

Edited August 14, 2018 by enoob57

[enoob57]

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:48 AM, Yowm said:

The old question, If God created Lucifer knowing that he would eventually sin, thus by creating Lucifer with that foreknowledge that he would sin, we can say 'sin has no part with God' but can we say 'God has no part with sin' as far as He allowed it to happen when it was in His power not to allow the process to begin in the first place?

Actually Yowm I believe we are not to give place for sin... it is perversion of truth in a specific time with judgment and has absolutely nothing of God's keeping within it. This is a self actuated truth by The Persons of God seen in eternity past and eternal state... God requires us to live in the light as He 'IS' in the light and that can only be accomplished in s/Spirit not flesh as I explained above.

[JoeChan82]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The logic is extremely so... all sin is born from lie. As God has explained Himself to us He fills eternity with His Will and in that is way, truth and life... no matter the distinction of being- truth is all there is and is seen in the subjective nature of lie: a lie is totally dependent upon truth which must exist prior to any lie. The very nature of existence of lie- truth must be in place for it to even begin... yet truth 'IS' reliant only upon itself as God's sole possession in expression of Himself without end! The very nature of free will is in God without limits, without any form of restriction, in fact the ideal of restriction was born out of lie in that truth could be bound with a beginning and it is here that lucifer began his work to proclaim himself to be god...
I know that God has explained this to me by His Word

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
KJV

In this truth I must enter the vehicle of faith without bringing anything of my first begin with me for I am not yet but I am in Him... and it is in this depth that I find God presence in me for I accept the truth born out of His Word by The Presence of The Holy Spirit within me fulfilling this verse

1 John 4:13-19

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.
KJV

and again

1 Cor 2:10-13

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
KJV

because this logic precedes sin and proceeds the same in the eternal state we have been given the truth without end as possession now and it is the power of God unto salvation Through Christ alone! Having this truth formed within us we see clearly what Jesus was teaching us by the power of The Holy Spirit

John 8:32-36

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
KJV

This is such a solid witness to my heart that I know I shall not return to the vomit of my first begin and birth because there remain no further attraction (in s/Spirit) for me... 

That was deep! Your scripture references were spot on. I especially liked what you said about truth being in place first, before a lie can exist. What a thought!

[JoeChan82]

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:06 PM, enoob57 said:

I can say this there is an eternity past where there was not sin and an eternity future where there is no sin and the period of sin is removed from those eternities... and we being eternal children with God have no need to give any thought past this ….

 

Let me take a second bite at the apple. Here is the Bible as understood by pure logic: Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore Mary is the mother of God. That is logical, but not true. Example two: God can do anything. God is good. Why does God not stop evil? That is also logical, but incorrect.  My only point is that the Bible cannot be understood by logic alone. I was not attempting to discredit your OP. In fact, I am in agreement with the OP. Did that clear up my intentions for you any?