"Tribulation Saints" - A Fly in the Pretrib Ointment

[Guest shiloh357]

16 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

 

You cannot have it both ways: if the church must go through the Tribulation, then to exclude the dead believers would be to exclude them from "the privilege of suffering for the Lord during that time". If those who died in Christ have escaped the Tribulation, then why not those living in Christ now?

 

I had never thought of that.   Thanks for that insight!

[Brother Duke]

1 hour ago, Sojourner414 said:

The Church is a specific body of believers who are "the Bride"; those who do not repent before the Rapture are excluded from this group. If they repent during the Tribulation, they are of a different group. And Scripture speaks of the earth being "harvested" in Revelation twice (believers and non-believers).

One mistake you're making here is that God has to keep believers in the Tribulation so that everyone is "one body". But then that presents another issue that no one has answered: does that then mean ALL the CHURCH believers who died before the Trib must be resurrected to go through the tribulation as they are also part of the same body?

You cannot have it both ways: if the church must go through the Tribulation, then to exclude the dead believers would be to exclude them from "the privilege of suffering for the Lord during that time". If those who died in Christ have escaped the Tribulation, then why not those living in Christ now?

BTW: if folks are concerned about "being a martyr for the Lord" in times of Tribulation, why wait? There's enough trouble and "hot spots" around the world as we speak where if someone wants to die for the Lord, you can fly there and soon find yourselves suffering with those under intense persecution and death. You don't need to wait for the Tribulation!

The living go through tribulation.  Anyone that is unrepentant is not part of the church.  Dead believers are already part of the church and their tribulations are over.

[Brother Duke]

5 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"So how does an vast group escape 'the tribulation period' because they are 'not appointed to wrath' when another vast group, who are members of the first group, are 'appointed to wrath?

Please answer this"

 

Tell me who you think the second grouping is .... there will be no believers upon the earth except for the 144000 of Israel initially

Who are members of the first group that are appointed to wrath?  No believers are appointed to wrath.  What do you think God's Wrath is?  What do you think the tribulation is?

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Sojourner414 said:

No problem; one thing those who oppose Pre-Trib don't think about is that a very small fraction of the entire Church would go through the Tribulation if Post or Mid-trib were correct. Most of the Church, from Pentecost until those believers who have just passed on, are pretty much missing the Tribulation!  And since many complain that "you cannot have a bunch of resurrections count as one", then where's the resurrection of the Church to the Tribulation in Scripture? Doesn't Scripture say that man would "die once, but after this, the judgment"?

So, either God would have to raise a ton of dead believers who were safe with him in order to go suffer (pretty much eliminating the chance of anyone being free of pain or suffering after they go to be with the Lord), or the only ones who get the "privilege" of suffering in the tribulation are a small percentage of believers who were not "more holy" than those who passed, nor more wicked than those who have gone on, but because God made an arbitrary decision that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Seems easier for folks to believe that than to believe that God removes the whole church, dead and alive,  from the grave and from the face of the Earth, and classes those who come to faith during the Tribulation as not being part of the Church.

Go figure.

 

Well said ?

[Brother Duke]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Well said ?

People have been in tribulation for a long time.  The apostles and the early church did not fare well against the Pharisees and the Romans.  The dark ages were not that great.  Tribulation is nothing new for the individual.   The Great Tribulation will be a world tribulation.   The dead in Christ have already had their own tribulations.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

People have been in tribulation for a long time. 

Nothing like what the Tribulation recorded in Revelation will be like.

Quote

The apostles and the early church did not fare well against the Pharisees and the Romans.  The dark ages were not that great.  Tribulation is nothing new for the individual.   The Great Tribulation will be a world tribulation.   The dead in Christ have already had their own tribulations.

You confuse Tribulation with persecution.  It will something so bad, the world has seen nothing like it.   We have no point of reference for just how bad it is going to get and that's before the wrath of God is unleashed.  It will make Christians face today look like walk in the park.

[Brother Duke]

13 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Nothing like what the Tribulation recorded in Revelation will be like.

You confuse Tribulation with persecution.  It will something so bad, the world has seen nothing like it.   We have no point of reference for just how bad it is going to get and that's before the wrath of God is unleashed.  It will make Christians face today look like walk in the park.

As a whole world yes.  But is it any worse for the individual?  We have been through Bubonic Plagues, Flu, WWI, WWII, Dark Ages,  Persecution.  If you are killed by a Nuke or by a car crushing you does it matter to the individual after it happens?  The Jewish people were put into death camps.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

As a whole world yes.  But is it any worse for the individual?  We have been through Bubonic Plagues, Flu, WWI, WWII, Dark Ages,  Persecution.  If you are killed by a Nuke or by a car crushing you does it matter to the individual after it happens?  The Jewish people were put into death camps.

The Bible says it will be something so bad that there was nothing like it.  So yes, it will be worse than even those things.  

[Brother Duke]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

The Bible says it will be something so bad that there was nothing like it.  So yes, it will be worse than even those things.  

The point is many people have been through persecutions and tribulations.  There is no need for the dead in Christ to go through the Great Tribulation.   They have finished the race already.  If they are in Christ then they will be resurrected in Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Brother Duke said:

The point is many people have been through persecutions and tribulations.  There is no need for the dead in Christ to go through the Great Tribulation.   They have finished the race already.  If they are in Christ then they will be resurrected in Christ.

As Sojo pointed out, you cannot have it both ways.   You cannot argue that the whole Church must go through the Tribulation, but create an exception for the those in the Church that have already passed away.

We are being criticized for that very thing, but for some reason, when you make the same basic argument it is acceptable.