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Heb 13:8

Matt 24:20 Winter or a Storm

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On 6/30/2018 at 11:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, n2thelight.

Sorry, but Job 38 is NOT about the Creation; it's about the RE-FORMING of the earth AFTER THE FLOOD! First, understand that the earth before the Flood was described like this:

Genesis 1:6-13 (KJV)

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament (raqiya`, an expanse) in the midst (middle) of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament (raqiya`), and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven (Shaamaayim)." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

So, at this point, we have the SKY ("Shaamaayim"), the earth's atmosphee, sandwiched between the "wters above the expanse" and the "waters below the expanse."

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth ('Erets)"; and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas (Yammim)": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

So, after the third day (what we call Tuesday, today), they had four areas: The Earth (the dry land), the Seas (the waters below the expanse), the Sky (the expanse or atmosphere), and the waters above the expanse.

Then we read that the environment of that first Creation was described like this:

Genesis 2:4-14 (KJV)

4 These are the generations of the heavens (haashaamayim) and of the earth (haa'aarets) when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Based on this information, there was no rain before Noach's Flood; therefore, since rain is condensed water in the atmosphere that grows too heavy to remain aloft, and because clouds are condensed water that accumulates on dust particles in the air, there were no clouds before the flood, either. This is reinforced by the fact that the dew point was so low that only a mist could rise during the heat of the day and water the ground.

So, now read on in Iyov's book...

Job 38:1-11 (KJV)

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

This portion is talking about the "sea broke forth as if it had issued out of the womb." This is the Flood of Noach's day itself. Observe:

Genesis 7:6-24 (KJV)

6 And Noah [was] six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. 7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that [are] not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days,that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the sameday were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and fortynights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the [sur]face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the highhills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upwarddid the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground,both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

So, the waters issued from "all the fountains of the great deep" that were "broken up" BEFORE the rains began to fall! They issued from below and rained from above for 40 days and 40 nights, which, by the way

Continuing on...

Job 38:12-38 (KJV)

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

These are ALL issues about the water cycle of the earth that did NOT exist before the Flood of Noach's day!

Yes, but I find your question denegrading and patrionizing. Just because I AM a ben-Elohiym, doesn't mean that I'm a "spirit person" or have ever BEEN a "spirit being!" Don't you think that if I had been one of these "spirit beings," I would have remembered being such? What did you learn from being such a person if you can't remember anything about it?! Ridiculous.

Yes, the prophet Yirmeyahu was indeed known before YHWH formed him in the belly. This is simply because the fertilized egg has a way to travel down the fallopian tube until it is embedded in the wall lining of the uterus. From the time of his conception, God ordained him to be a prophet to the nations. This verse is NOT suggesting that he existed PRIOR TO his conception!

2602 katabolee (kat-al-bol-ay'). From kataballoo; a deposition, i.e. Founding; figuratively, conception -- conceive, foundation.

2598 kataballoo (kat-ab-al'-lo). From kata and balloo; to throw down -- cast down, lay.

2596 kata (kat-ah'). A primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined) -- about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, (charita-)bly, concerning, + covered, (dai-)ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from... To, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of),... By, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where(-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.

906 balloo (bal'-lo). A primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense) -- arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare rhipto.

and

2889 kosmos (kos'-mos). Probably from the base of komizoo; orderly arrangement, i.e. Decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) -- adorning, world.

2865 komizoo (kom-id'-zo). From a primary komeoo (to tend, i.e. Take care of); properly, to provide for, i.e. (by implication) to carry off (as if from harm; genitive case obtain) -- bring, receive.

It does NOT mean "the overthrow!" That comes from someone who doesn't know Greek who wants to READ INTO the Scriptures something that isn't there!

It means "before the depositing of the world-system," or "before the world-system was laid down."

The matter is quite simple: God is omniscient; that is, He is all-knowing! Again, there are generally nine months (40 weeks) between the time the child is conceived and the child is born. 

Read the whole thing:

Romans 9:10-13 (KJV)

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca [Rivkah] also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac [Yitschaq]; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (Gen. 25:23) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Mal. 1:2-3)

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Exo. 33:19) 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo. 9:16) 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

"Hatred" here is not an active aggression against someone. It is simply a "leave-them-alone" kind of disinterest! YHWH God decided while the children were still in the womb to work with Ya`aqov (Jacob) and ignore the  built-in entitlement that Esav (Esau) had. He belittled his birthright, and had no interest in the things of God. So, God showed no interest in him.

I'll just leave it at the earth became void and without form.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.

In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

was

1961  hayah

hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon,  altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall,  follow, happen,  have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require,  use.

void
922

bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:

KJV - emptiness, void.

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form"is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]


Excerpt from The Companion Bible Appendix 8:
 

The word "without form" (Hebrew tohu) is used of a subsequent event which, we know not how long after the Creation, befell the primitive creation of Genesis 1:1. It occurs in Genesis 1:2. Deuteronomy 32:10. 1Samuel 12:21 (twice). Job 6:18; 12:24; 26:7. Psalm 107:40. Isaiah 24:10; 29:21; 34:11; 40:17, 23; 41:29; 44:9; 45:18, 19; 49:4; 59:4. Jeremiah 4:23.

 

The Hebrew bohu, rendered "void", means desolate, and occurs in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23.   The two words together occur in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23.

end Companion Bible excerpt

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

How many people really know God's Word? There are very few that can quote you anything from the Bible, except those parts that can give them personal gain. The translators were kind to use the word "sottish", for the word means just plain "stupid", or "silly". The nature of mankind today is to "make a buck any way that you can". Their minds are evil constantly, as they were in the days of Noah. However, in the ways of goodness, and doing right, there is a void.

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here we get back to the same word that we saw earlier in Genesis 1:2; The Hebrew word "Tohu" for "void". In other words, God is saying, "I destroyed the first heaven and earth age." There simply was no life form existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age in any form.

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is why the magnetic north is 90 miles off true north? God shook the earth and everything moved from its foundations at the time the destruction "tohu" took place.

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

Anyway,do you,I'm good...

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On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

(Continuing on...)

... "We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out" (1 Timothy 6:7).

Shalom, n2thelight.

Right, that's why we send our treasures on ahead of us ... TO THE NEW JERUSALEM, which shall descend to this re-made Earth (the NEW Earth) after the GWTJ.

Again, read on:

1 Timothy 6:11-16 (KJV)

11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ (our Master, Yeshua` the Messiah)15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So, again, we are anicipating the SECOND COMING and the RESURRECTION that entails!

On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

When we go to our eternal home "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:5, 7; compare Genesis 3:19).

Well, WHEN WE DIE "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit (the breath; our "wind") will return to God who gave it," but we are NOT going "to our eternal home," yet.

God said to Adam in...

Genesis 3:19 (KJV)

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

That's why I say that we ARE our bodies, and when we die we CEASE TO EXIST until the RESURRECTION at which time God RE-CREATES us as we were, only as NEW BODIES that no longer can die or decay!

On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

So our earthly body cannot go to heaven, but when we put off our physical body, our corruptible and mortal life is changed into an incorruptible and immortal life (1 Corinthians 15: 53-54).

No. This is said ENTIRELY wrongly. Here's how it should have been worded: "So we as earthly bodies cannot inherit God's Kingdom, but when we die as physical bodies, our corruptible, mortal lives are changed into incorruptlble, immortal lives when we are resurrected at the Messiah Yeshua`s coming."

One does not "go to heaven"; one is resurrected to new life to rule and reign with the Messiah here on earth! There are a THOUSAND YEARS yet in this age - the MILLENNIUM! But, this is just the FIRST stage of our destinies! After the Millennium, the Great White Throne Judgment will occur (Rev. 20:11-15). AFTER the GWTJ, the Messiah Yeshua` will deliver up the Kingdom to God His Father:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ [the Messiah] risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ [the Messiah] shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ [the Messiah] the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's [they who are the Messiah's] at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It is at THAT time that we read:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon kainon = "a new sky") and a new earth: for the first heaven (Greek: ho ... prootos ouranos = "the first sky") and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw THE HOLY CITY, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of the sky," in other words, it LANDS), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (a loud voice out of the sky) saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = "tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This passage isn't talking about "Heaven"; it's talking about the NEW EARTH with its capitol, the NEW JERUSALEM! THAT'S when we should anticipate "no more pain" and "no more death!"

On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

Evidently when Paul said this, some people were wondering if everyone would sleep a long time in the grave before the resurrection, for Paul reassures people that we will not all sleep, and that it will not take ages but will happen immediately, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, that is, when we die.

This is NOT what Paul was saying! He was reassuring people that not ALL of us will be sleeping when the Lord Yeshua` returns! And, it's not until the LAST trumpeting that we shall be changed! That happens when the Lord Yeshua` the Messiah returns!

On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

The Grain of Wheat

One of the ways that Jesus teaches us about the life after death is by saying, "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain" (John 12: 24; compare Matthew 13:31; Mark 4:31; Luke 13:19). This is very similar to the analogy that Paul uses: "Someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as he pleases, and to each seed its own body." (1 Corinthians 15: 35-38)

When a seed is put into the ground, the outer husk of this seed simply rots away. But within that seed is a germ of life that is raised up with a completely new plant or body around it. Paul says very clearly here that the body which is raised is not the body which is put into the ground. Furthermore, when the farmer plants his seed, it immediately begins growing. It does not remain dormant in the ground for centuries before a new life begins. Likewise, when our bodies are buried in the ground, the germ of life within each of us is immediately raised up clothed with a new body appropriate for the spiritual world.

Sorry, but biblically speaking, you don't have a leg to stand on! First of all, Paul was using this analogy to show that it is STILL the SAME SEED, the SAME GENETIC CONSTRUCTION, just with a different LOOK! When you finally come to understand that we ARE our bodies, THEN you will understand that, in order for you to still be YOU, you must be resurrected! That means that your body - YOU - will be re-created JUST AS YOU WERE before you died, and then you will be TRANSFORMED! This is a MAJOR "OVERHAUL," and won't happen until the First General Resurrection that happens at Yeshua`s return.

And, for your information, there ARE some seeds that will remain dormant for many years, even centuries and millennia, before they receive the heat, light, fertilizer, and water they need to regenerate. You see, it's an IMPERFECT analogy because the seed never truly died. The life was still in the cells of the seedgerm.

You can't show me a "spiritual world," because THERE'S NO SUCH THING! That's a fictitious world invented by theologians in an attempt to explain things they can't otherwise explain away or accept! That means that it will ALWAYS come up short in the analysis of God's Perfect and Complete Scripture.

On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

Objections

Those who believe in a resurrection of the physical body may quote passages to support that belief, but an examination of those passages will show that this is not the teaching of the passages themselves, but is an assumption that is read into them.

Or, so you believe.

On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

What about Job's Prophecy?

Job says, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:25,26, King James Version). Some people have assumed that the "latter day" means the end of the world, and that "worms destroying this body" means the body rotting in the grave. In fact, the original Hebrew does not mention either "worms" or "body". A more accurate translation is: "And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh shall I see God…" (New King James Version).

Job was not talking about his body rotting in the grave, but about the fact that his skin was already virtually destroyed by the boils that covered him from head to foot (Job 2:7, 19:20). When he said, "in my flesh I shall see God," he was not talking about some future time when his body would be resurrected, but he was saying that he would see God before he died, while he was still alive in the body he had. At the end of the book of Job God did appear to Job, and Job said, " I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You" (Job 42:5). And so the prophecy was fulfilled, that in his flesh he would see God. We can also see that God redeemed him at that time, for we are told, "The Lord accepted Job. And the Lord restored Job's losses…. Indeed the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before" (Job 42:9-10). The same chapter shows us what Job meant by "the latter day," for we read, "Now the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning" (Job 42:12).

Taken in context, this passage says nothing at all about the resurrection of the physical body centuries later, yet it has been taken as a primary passage supporting that concept.

Wouldn't it make sense to go to the Hebrew rather than to any English translation of the Hebrew? Here's a transliteration (exchanging the Hebrew letters into English representative letters) of the Hebrew for Job 19:25-26 in context:

Iyov 19:22-29 (KJV)
22 Laammaah tirdfuniy kmow eel uwmibsaariy lo’ tisbaa`uw:
23 Miy yitteen eefow vyikkaatVuwn millaay miy yitteen baceefer vyuchaaquw:
24 B`eeT barzel v`ofaaret laa`ad batsuwr yeechaatsVuwn:
25 Va’aniy yaadatiy go’aliy chaay v’achaarown `al `aafaar yaaquwm:
26 V’achar `owriy niqfuw zo’t uwmibsaariy echaazeh elowha:
27 Asher aniy echezeh liy v`eenay raa’uw vlo’ zaar kaaluw khilyotay bcheeqiy:
28 Kiy to’mruw mah nirdaaf low vshoresh daaVaar nimtsaa’ biy:
29 Guwruw laakhem mipneey chereV kiy cheemaah `aavonowt chaareV lma`an teed`uwn shadduwn:

22 Laammaah = 22 Why
tirdfuniy = persecute-me
kmow = like-you're
eel = God
uwmibsaariy = and-with-my-flesh
lo’ = not
tisbaa`uw: = be-satisfied?
23 Miy = 23 Who
yitteen = will-give-[them]
eefow = then
vyikkaatVuwn = and-write
millaay = my-words
miy = who
yitteen = will-give-[them]
baceefer = in-a-book
vyuchaaquw: = and-engrave-[them]!
24 B`eeT = 24 In-pen
barzel = with-iron
v`ofaaret = and-lead
laa`ad = to-[the]-age
batsuwr = in-a-cliff
yeechaatsVuwn: = engraved!

25 Va’aniy = 25 And-I
yaadatiy = I-know
go’aliy = my-Redeemer
chaay = lives
v’achaarown = and-at-[the]-last-time
`al = upon
`aafaar = [the]-dust
yaaquwm: = he-shall-stand.

26 V’achar = 26 And-after
`owriy = my-skin
niqfuw = is-struck/decayed
zo’t = this-[one]
uwmibsaariy = and-with-my-flesh
echaazeh = I-shall-see
elowha: = God.

27 Asher = 27 This-[One]
aniy = I-myself
echezeh = I-shall-see
liy = to-my
v`eenay = and-my-eyes
raa’uw = shall-see-Him
vlo’ = and-not
zaar = another [though]
kaaluw = be-consumed
khilyotay = my-kidneys
bcheeqiy: = within-me.

28 Kiy = 28 For
to’mruw = you-say
mah = "What
nirdaaf = persecution-do-we
low = to-him
vshoresh = and-a-root
daaVaar = of-[the]-matter/word
nimtsaa’ = is-found
biy: = in-me?"
29 Guwruw = 29 You-be-afraid
laakhem = to-their
mipneey = faces
chereV = of-a-sword
kiy = for
cheemaah = your-wrath [deserves]
`aavonowt = punishment
chaareV = of-a-sword
lma`an = to-[the]-end-that
teed`uwn = you-may-know

shadduwn: = [there is] a-judgment.

The clues within this context, particularly in these five highlighted verses, are too many to explain them away as you've attempted to do.

First, what he is about to say is so important that Iyov wished his words could be recorded both in a book and by engraving them on a cliff side in iron and lead so that it lasts throughout the age!

Second, he said "I know that my Redeemer lives!" One version reads "Vindicator," but "Go'el" ("Go'aliy" = "MY-Redeemer") means MUCH more than just vindicating one's honor! It means to BUY BACK one's LIFE!

Third, the word for "last" is "achaarown," not "achariyt." This is the feminine form and as Brown-Driver-Briggs notes:

"Job 19:25 וְאַחֲרוֺן עַלעָֿפָר יָקוּם and as one coming after (me) (and so able to establish my innocence when I am dead) will he (גָֹּֽאֲלִי my Vindicator) arise upon the dust. — The feminine is used adverbially (compare רִאשֹׁנָה) = afterwards or at the last(according to context)."

On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

What about the Last Day?

In one passage Jesus says that He will raise people up "at the last day" (John 6: 39-54). From that passage alone, we would not know whether He meant "the last day of the world" or "the last day of their earthly lives." In a similar way, Jesus says in the previous chapter, "The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5: 28, 19). The context shows He was speaking not of a resurrection still centuries distant, but in the present tense. "The Father raises up the dead, and gives life to them…. The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5: 21, 25). Clearly, this resurrection was already taking place. Consequently, when Martha spoke of her brother Lazarus remaining in the tomb until "the resurrection at the last day," Jesus corrected her by saying, "I am the resurrection and the life," implying that the resurrection was present. Jesus continued, "He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." When we view the teachings about being raised at "the last day" in this context, it becomes clear that it must mean "the last day of their lives."

This is an exercise in semantics. "THE Last Day" is not the same as "last day!" He's not talking about a random, arbitrary "last day," different for each individual. If He was, He would have used a different way to say it as translated into the Greek! He's talking about a COMMON event to all in the future! Keep your verses in order and in context:

John 5:16-29 (KJV)

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things [healing the impotent man and telling him to carry his cot] on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto [i.e., on this day], and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him [the Son] all things that himself [the Father] doeth: and he [the Father] will shew him [the Son] greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

While God the Father COULD heal them all, it is clear that He did NOT heal them all! Therefore, even though these verbs "raiseth" and "quickeneth" are in the "present, indicative, active" tense, mood and voice, the word "as" was added, as well as the words "whom he will." That makes these activities both selective and progressive, making their meanings more in the present PERFECT tense, as we understand it, because of this context.

These activities are both selective, based on the whim of the Subject, and on-going, having started in the past and continuing on indefinitely. Grammar alone doesn't always convey the sense of the scene as it is described in the context. That's where logic and common sense come in.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is both key and crucial to this conversation. What He is conveying is that this everlasting life is a "DONE DEAL," NOT that it is already present! The "condemnation" also is a future event. It doesn't happen at death, but according to Yochannan (John) in the book of the Revelation of Yeshua` the Messiah, it happens AFTER the Millennium and CONCURRENTLY WITH the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20)!

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, this is NOT a simple present tense, and these TWO events (TWO points on the timeline), "the resurrection of life" and "the resurrection of damnation" are in the future:

Revelation 20:4-15 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Compare this to Paul's writing in...

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

a) Christ the firstfruits;
b) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
c) 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [God, the Father] that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Again, we see the TWO events: Christ's coming, and the point when all enemies are under the Son's feet and He shall deliver up the Kingdom to God, the Father, which is simply called "the end!"

Once again, I shall end it here and continue later. Just note that REALITY and PHYSICALITY are much more concrete than you're making this "resurrection" of yours out to be.

 

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Once again, I shall end it here and continue later. Just note that REALITY and PHYSICALITY are much more concrete than you're making this "resurrection" of yours out to be.

So I take it you believe in soul sleep?

Mark 12:26 "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' "

Jesus is saying here, "now lets talk about the dead for a moment." Jesus is reminding these Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead, yet God has said, I am the God of these men, and if God were the God of these men at Moses time, than each of these three men would still have to be alive. To be a God over anybody they would have to be alive to have a God over them. The meaning to this is that nobody is dead yet, not even Satan and his evil spirits, and fallen angels. Sure Satan was condemned to death in the first earth age, however that sentence will not be carried out until after the Millennium age, and the great white throne judgment. Jesus is telling these men that they don't know what they are even talking about.

Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you in Ecclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.

God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.

II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Edited by n2thelight

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On 7/3/2018 at 2:53 AM, n2thelight said:

So I take it you believe in soul sleep?

Mark 12:26 "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' "

Jesus is saying here, "now lets talk about the dead for a moment." Jesus is reminding these Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead, yet God has said, I am the God of these men, and if God were the God of these men at Moses' time, then each of these three men would still have to be alive. To be a God over anybody they would have to be alive to have a God over them. The meaning to this is that nobody is dead yet, not even Satan and his evil spirits, and fallen angels. Sure Satan was condemned to death in the first earth age, however that sentence will not be carried out until after the Millennium age, and the great white throne judgment. Jesus is telling these men that they don't know what they are even talking about.

Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you in Ecclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.

God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.

II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Shalom, n2thelight.

It's not technically "soul sleep." However, it is "BODY sleep." The "soul," meaning "air-breathing creature," CEASES TO EXIST! WE CEASE TO EXIST! TEMPORARILY! Yes, the body decays and turns back to dust. WE decay and turn back to dust! What you're not getting is that this condition is EXACTLY the state in which Adam was BEFORE he was created!

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man (not the body of the man) of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (a living air-breathing creature).

He didn't exist, and was CREATED! We also may not exist after our substance returns to dust, but God REMEMBERS us and WILL RE-CREATE us in the Resurrection! Oh, and by the way, I'm more like a Paruwsh ("Pharisee") than a Tsadduwq ("Sadducee"). I believe in the Resurrection in which the P'ruwshiym (like Paul) also believed. The Ts'dduwqiym did NOT believe in the Resurrection ... JUST LIKE YOU DON'T! And, you should know that what you CALL a "resurrection" is nothing of the sort! The Resurrection will be JUST LIKE it happened to Yeshua`s friend, Elezar ("Lazarus"), only without being able to die again:

Yeshua` waited four days before resurrecting him to assure that the decay process had already started and that people were SURE that he was indeed dead!

John 11:1-53 (KJV)

1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus (Elezar), of Bethany, the town of Mary (Miryam) and her sister Martha (Marta). 2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) 3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying,

"Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick."

4 When Jesus heard that, he said,

"This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."

5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was. 7 Then after that saith he to his disciples,

"Let us go into Judaea again."

8 His disciples say unto him,

"Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?"

9 Jesus answered,

"Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him."

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them,

"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

12 Then said his disciples,

"Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well."

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,

"Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him."

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus [the Twin], unto his fellowdisciples,

"Let us also go, that we may die with him."

17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already. 18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off: 19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. 20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

23 Jesus saith unto her,

"Thy brother shall rise again."

24 Martha saith unto him,

"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said unto her,

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

27 She saith unto him,

"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (the Mashiyach, the Anointed [to be King]), the Son of God (as David's Son), which should come into the world."

28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying,

"The Master is come, and calleth for thee. 

29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.

30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him. 31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying,

"She goeth unto the grave to weep there."

32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died."

33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 34 And said,

"Where have ye laid him?"

They said unto him,

"Lord, come and see."

35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews,

"Behold how he loved him!"

37 And some of them said,

"Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?"

38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 
39 Jesus said,

"Take ye away the stone."

Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him,

"Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days."

40 Jesus saith unto her,

"Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said,

"Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,

"Lazarus, come forth!" 

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them,

"Loose him, and let him go!"

45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said,

"What do we? (What are we going to do?) for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them,

"Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

They not only plotted against Yeshua`, but they also plotted against Elezar because he was LIVING proof (literally) of God's Power in the Son of God, Yeshua`.

John 12:1-11 (KJV)

1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. 3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 

5 "Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?"

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7 Then said Jesus,

"Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always."

9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 

10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

According to Mattityahu's (Matthew's) account, this supper (hosted by Y'hudah Keriotiy's [Judas Iscariot's] father, Shim`own [Simon]) took place shortly after the Olivet Discourse and just before Y'hudah Keriotiy (from Keriot, a town of Y'hudah about 30 miles south of Yerushalayim or Jerusalem, 10 miles south of Hevron or Hebron) covenanted with the chief priests to betray Yeshua` and deliver Him to them. And, that happened shortly before the Passover Seder in the upper room, when Yeshua` breaks the matzot with His disciples...

Baruwkh atah ADONAI Eloheinu Melekh ha'olam
Ha-motziy lechem min haa'aarets. Amen.

Blessed are you, O LORD our God, King of the Age
Who gives us bread from the earth. Truth!

...and shares the fourth cup of wine, the Cup of Redemption, with them.

Baruwkh atah ADONAI Eloheinu Melekh ha'olam
Boreey p'riy hagafen. Amen.

Blessed are you, O LORD our God, King of the Age
Creator of the fruit of the vine. Truth!

 

In Judaism, when one loses a loved one, he or she prays a prayer to God for as long as it takes to sink in. It's called "saying Qaddish" (some write "Kaddish") or "Amidah" (which means "Prayer"):

Listen closely to the first two sections of the prayer:

I. Baaruwkh ataah ADONAAY Eloheeynuw vEeloheey avowteeynuw, Eloheey Avraahaam, Eloheey Yitschaaq, vEeloheey Ya`aqov, haa'Eel haGaadowl haGibowr vhanowraa', Eel `Elyown, gowmeel chacaadiym TowViym, vqowneeh hakol, vzowkheer chacdeey aaVowt, uwmeeViy' Gow'eel liVneey bneeyhem lma`an shmow b'ahaVaah. Zaakhreenuw lchayiym, Melekh chaafeets bachayiym, lma`ankhaa Elohiym chayiym. Melekh `Owzeer uwMowshiy` uwMaageen, baaruwkh ataah ADONAAY Maageen Avraahaam.

II. Ataah gibowr l`owlaam, ADONAAY, mchayeeh meetiym ataah, raV lhowshiya`. Mkhelbeel chayiym bcheced, mchayah meetiym brachamiym rabiym, cowmeekh nowfliym, vrowfee' chowliym, uwmatiyr acuwriym, uwmqayeem emuwnaatow liysheeneey `aafaar. Miy khaamowkhaa ba`al gVuwrowt, uwmiy dowmeh laakh, Melekh meemiyt uwmchayeh uwmtsmiyach yshuw`aah. Miy khaamowkhaa, aV haarachamiym, zowkheer ytsuwraayv lchayiym brachamiym. Vne'emaan ataah lhachayowt meetiym. Baaruwkh ataah ADONAAY mchayeeh hametiym.

Here's the translation provided in a Siddur (Prayer book) I have:

I. Deserving of praise are you, O LORD our God and God of our fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, the great, mighty, revered and exalted God who bestows faithful love and is master of all. Mindful of the patriarchs' love for you, you will in your love bring a Redeemer to their children's children for the sake of your name. Remember us unto life, O King who delights in life, and inscribe us in the Book of Life so that we may live worthily for your sake, O God of life. O King, Helper, Redeemer and Shield, deserving of praise are you, O LORD, Shield of Abraham.

II. You are mighty forever, O LORD; you bring to life the dead; you are powerfully able to save. You sustain the living with faithful love; you bring the dead to life with great mercy; you support all who fall, and heal the sick; you free the enslaved and are faithful to those who sleep in the dust. Who is like you, Lord of might? Who can be compared to you, O King? You order death and restore life; and make your salvation flourish. Yes, you are faithful to raise the dead. Deserving of praise are you, O LORD, who raises the dead.

These prayers are based on the passages of Scripture in the Tanakh (the Old Testament) that contain PROMISES of life FROM the dead! The dust is NOT the end! God RE-CREATES life from the grave, and not in some mythical, "spiritual" bodies, either!

As touching 2 Corinthians 5:7-8, some say that the verses IMPLY an immediate transfer, but we are NOT told that is true within these verses! Paul could just mean that to be absent in body will SEEM like one is immediately in the presence of the Master, although a significant amount of time has passed! When one says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," simply ask, "WHEN?"

Also, the "body" in this context may refer to the "body of the Messiah" to which we belong, not as though it were a physical body of flesh we possess. Again, we ARE our bodies!

Here's the context:

2 Corinthians 5:1-10 (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

We are taught and led to believe that each one of us is an immaterial person within the shell of a physical body. But, the Scriptures teach that each one of us IS the physical body that is CALLED a "soul" or an "air-breathing body" while we are alive! When we cease breathing, we cease being a "soul." The "soul" doesn't "go" ANYWHERE!

And, the "spirit" is the "breath" of an individual. When we "breathe our last," our "spirit" - our "breath" - our "wind" - goes back into the atmosphere and joins the "WIND" of God in the atmosphere!

Yeshua` haMashiyach (Jesus the Christ) is Coming Again, and we anticipate His Coming and the Resurrection that is associated with it!

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` haMashiyach (Jesus the Christ) is Coming Again, and we anticipate His Coming and the Resurrection that is associated with it!

The flesh will not rise,it's nothing but dirt

Thanks for the conversation 

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4 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The flesh will not rise,it's nothing but dirt

Thanks for the conversation 

Shalom, n2thelight.

You're welcome and thanks for your response. All I'll say is this:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, 

"Peace be unto you." 

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, 

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." 

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat (food)?" 

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

and

1 John 3:1-3 (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

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Shabbat shalom, everyone.

I should add that we have all sorts of contextual clues in Revelation 21 and 22 that suggest a LITERAL, TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL reality in the New Earth when the New Jerusalem lands.

For instance, look at the first few verses of chapter 22:

Revelation 22:1-2 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This is NOT "figurative language!" This is REALITY! What's the point of having a "pure river of water of life, clear as crystal" if not to DRINK FROM IT?!

What's the point of having a type of tree that produces 12 kinds of fruits each month if not to EAT FROM IT?!

What would be the point of being able to make medicine from the leaves of such a tree if not to USE IT?!

That's just from 2 facts! Lift up your heads! Your redemption draws nigh!

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On 7/2/2018 at 10:28 PM, n2thelight said:

I'll just leave it at the earth became void and without form.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.

In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

was

1961  hayah

hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon,  altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall,  follow, happen,  have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require,  use.

void
922

bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:

KJV - emptiness, void.

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form"is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]


Excerpt from The Companion Bible Appendix 8:
 

The word "without form" (Hebrew tohu) is used of a subsequent event which, we know not how long after the Creation, befell the primitive creation of Genesis 1:1. It occurs in Genesis 1:2. Deuteronomy 32:10. 1Samuel 12:21 (twice). Job 6:18; 12:24; 26:7. Psalm 107:40. Isaiah 24:10; 29:21; 34:11; 40:17, 23; 41:29; 44:9; 45:18, 19; 49:4; 59:4. Jeremiah 4:23.

 

The Hebrew bohu, rendered "void", means desolate, and occurs in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23.   The two words together occur in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23.

end Companion Bible excerpt

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

How many people really know God's Word? There are very few that can quote you anything from the Bible, except those parts that can give them personal gain. The translators were kind to use the word "sottish", for the word means just plain "stupid", or "silly". The nature of mankind today is to "make a buck any way that you can". Their minds are evil constantly, as they were in the days of Noah. However, in the ways of goodness, and doing right, there is a void.

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here we get back to the same word that we saw earlier in Genesis 1:2; The Hebrew word "Tohu" for "void". In other words, God is saying, "I destroyed the first heaven and earth age." There simply was no life form existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age in any form.

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is why the magnetic north is 90 miles off true north? God shook the earth and everything moved from its foundations at the time the destruction "tohu" took place.

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

Anyway,do you,I'm good...

Shalom, n2thelight.

People read these posts without posting themselves. While that's fine in itself, I almost forgot to answer this post (that I've answered elsewhere before) for THEIR benefit. You KNOW that I couldn't let this go!

Jeremiah 4 is NOT about the Creation of this earth and sky (or "Heaven," in some people's minds), nor does it describe a world that existed prior to Genesis 1:2! PLEASE remember to include a passage within its CONTEXT!

Jeremiah 4:1-31 (KJV)

1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.

2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.

6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.

9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.

10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.

11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, 12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.

13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.

16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers [witnesses] come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.

17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.

18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.

19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-Land") is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. [This describes ISRAEL!]

23 I beheld the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-Land"), and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land (Hebrew: kaal haa'aarets = "all the-Land") shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28 For this shall the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-Land") mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

By looking at the WHOLE context (the REST of Jeremiah [or Yirmeyahu's prophecy]), one sees that this is about the CAPTIVITY OF Y'HUDAH!

The phrase "tohu v-bohu" is NOT a "link" to Genesis 1:2! To the contrary, it is a simple phrase that means something simple: "formless and empty."  Now, if the context is about all the physical things we can see at the time of Creation, then the phrase can be applied to the whole planet. BUT, when the context is about the Land of Israel at the time of the Captivity into Babylon, then the phrase is about the Land of Israel!

It's like the English phrase, "small and beautiful." When we're talking about a diamond, "small and beautiful" applies to the diamond. When we're talking about a baby, then "small and beautiful" refers to the baby! "Beautiful" is a matter of judgment and the value that one places upon a thing or person.

When the Hebrew phrase "tohu v-bohu" is applied to the devastation associated with the Captivity of Y'hudah to Babylon, it's talking about the land being DESTROYED - all the cities of Y'hudah were DESTROYED; it's talking about the land being EMPTY - all of its citizens and livestock have been taken captive ... or killed! The rest of the animals and birds have run away or flown away from the fires and smoke that were inflicted upon the whole Land!

 

The same is true for Isaiah 34:11. Look at its context!

Isaiah 34:1-17 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven [birds, primarily] shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah [Botsrah], and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea [Edom].

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences (payback) for the controversy of Zion.

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch (tar), and the dust thereof into brimstone (sulfur), and the land thereof shall become burning pitch (burning tar).

10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness (Hebrew: qav tohuw v'aVneey bohuw = "a-connection of-destruction and-stones of-emptiness").

12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. [The nobles and the princes shall be no more.]

13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons (lizards), and a court[yard] for owls.

14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr (wild goat) shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures (buzzards) also be gathered, every one with her mate.

16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

[Their land will be given to the wildlife and no one will live there forever.]

This is about the Land of Edom which used to be south of Israel. This particular destruction hasn't happened, yet. So, this is talking about a future devastation of their land. It talks about a destruction in which "all the host of heaven [birds, primarily] shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down." This might be a nuclear devastation that triggers a seismic event. In any case, that land shall be uninhabitable for humans, basically forever (or at least until the next Age).

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13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

When the Hebrew phrase "tohu v-bohu" is applied to the devastation associated with the Captivity of Y'hudah to Babylon, it's talking about the land being DESTROYED - all the cities of Y'hudah were DESTROYED; it's talking about the land being EMPTY - all of its citizens and livestock have been taken captive ... or killed! The rest of the animals and birds have run away or flown away from the fires and smoke that were inflicted upon the whole Land!

Can't agree with that.God did not create this earth void and without form.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Can't agree with that.God did not create this earth void and without form.

Genesis 1:2 says that He did. He created it perfect; that is, it was perfect matter, but as yet it didn't have the final, finishing touches put upon it by a loving, THOUGHTFUL God! It was "formless"; that is, it was without  land or the conditions suitable for animals or inhabitants. It was "empty"; that is, as yet, it had no lifeforms!

He took SIX DAYS to create this earth the way that He wanted it! That's a LONG TIME for a God who could simply SPEAK things into existence!

Even the "Day of Rest," Shabbat, was well thought out, although He didn't NEED to rest! He RESTED for humanity's sake! He set the example for them to follow!

Don't believe the lie of a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 that haSatan has put in your way as a stumbling block to trip you up and distract you! Instead, learn how Mosheh (Moses) wrote and know that summaries of what is to follow coming first in the text is NORMAL for Hebraic writing!

The very idea that there was a previous earth that haSatan was key in its destruction so that God had to start over gives haSatan FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT he doesn't deserve! It was a way for him to make himself LOOK like he was on an even-keel with God Almighty! (He's not, y'know.)

Edited by Retrobyter
to reveal the plan of Satan for this gap.

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